Fillable FA-10 PDF

[M1911]

Does this Jason Guida guy live in the real world?

He is a Deval appointee, who has been given marching orders to put the screws to gun owners.

Remember when people were saying there was no difference between Muffy and Patrick, because she was a RINO? Now you get to witness the power of the [strike]dark side[/strike] executive branch.

 

[M1911]

We all mostly have smartphones. Hopefully they make the web form mobile compatible...

Typing that much information on a smartphone correctly would be a major pain in the backside.

 

[dwarven1]

He is a Deval appointee, who has been given marching orders to put the screws to gun owners.

Remember when people were saying there was no difference between Muffy and Patrick, because she was a RINO? Now you get to witness the power of the [strike]dark side[/strike] executive branch.

Hey, don't blame me - I voted FOR Muffy!

 

[M1911]

Hey, don't blame me - I voted FOR Muffy!

You and me, both, my friend.

 

[Len-2A Training]

OK folks, put down the pitchforks for a bit.

I spent ~45 minutes with Jason Guida and Ron Glidden this afternoon, after Ron's Firearms Law Update Seminar in Marlboro.

The new system won't be as onerous as the memo made it sound. I have answers to a number of questions about it and will compile my notes later this evening and post up a synopsis of how it is supposed to work either later tonight or early tomorrow.

Right now my brain is saturated with MGL, firearms law, EOPS Advisories, e-FA-10, etc. and need some time to chill out before tackling a coherent write-up of this new system as I understand it from Jason.

 

[Len-2A Training]

NOTES from my discussion with Jason Guida, Director of the Firearms Records Bureau today.


e-FA-10 System

To enter a sale/transfer, the ONLY PIN required is that of the SELLER. You will also need the LTC # of both parties. From this info, the e-FA-10 form will auto-populate the data. You will, of course need the gun info to fill out the form as well but since the seller does this, he/she has access to all that data anyway.

You can do this and create two copies from your home/office BEFORE you meet the other party, bring the forms to the location where you are going to do the actual transfer and each sign it if you want to keep records (NOT REQUIRED).

If for some reason, the sale falls through, you WILL be able to go online and CANCEL THE TRANSACTION.

The electronic record is the only true record of the transaction as far as the State is concerned. Jason suggested that we create our own BILL OF SALE for our own records/purposes (keep in mind, some future law change may set other dates that you may just want proof of when you purchased something so it can again be re-sold in MA).

You can ONLY print a copy of the e-FA-10 form at the time you create it. You can NOT go back and print a copy later. NO Searching is allowed (for security and privacy reasons).

DAMN, I forgot to ask him if you can save it as a PDF to your own computer in case you can’t print at the time you do the online form. I just sent Jason an Email and asked that one and will post back when I get an answer.

For those people in the “toolies” with no electricity yet <LOL> or Internet service, there will be some FA-10 paper forms available thru their local PDs so that folks can submit the transfers.


Side topic:

Jason and I got into a "spirited discussion" about guns that a MA Resident purchases out of state and the need to report them to MA within 7 days of PURCHASE.

IANAL, but I contend that if a MA Resident obtains a gun outside of MA and keeps it outside of MA (let’s say a second home in another state), there is NO REQUIREMENT to report such acquisition to MA until/unless the gun is brought into MA for the first time.

Jason vehemently disagrees, citing C. 140 S. 128B.

Jason contends that since you are a MA Resident you must report everything you own, no matter what state it is kept in, all within 7 days of acquisition.

I contend that “. . . and receives such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, within the commonwealth shall within seven days after receiving such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, report, in writing, to the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services. . . “ this means one must report it within 7 days of the gun crossing the MA border ONLY (and report that as the date of “acquisition”)! [Quote is part of S. 128B. This is one of those “I report, you decide” issues.]

 

[terraformer]

Great, they really thought through this one.

• Pick random LTC ID
• Transfer firearm to that person
• Don't actually transfer anything
• Person has that firearm on their record
• Profit...

This is why they have public comment periods...

 

[dwarven1]

DAMN, I forgot to ask him if you can save it as a PDF to your own computer in case you can’t print at the time you do the online form. I just sent Jason an Email and asked that one and will post back when I get an answer.

Install a PDF printer driver on your PC - this lets you "print" it to a PDF file. The driver shows up as a printer. Quicken has a PDF printer driver, or you could use any of several freeware ones. I use Bullzip.

 

[Len-2A Training]

See my comments about PDF on the other thread.

 

[exo]

Great. So if someone can guess a random LTC #, they can get your personal info and/or submit fraudulent transactions. Granted, they need a LTC and PIN, but there are still DBs out there.

 

[terraformer]

Great. So if someone can guess a random LTC #, they can get your personal info and/or submit fraudulent transactions. Granted, they need a LTC and PIN, but there are still DBs out there.

Yup, even if the DB knows the info already there is a signature component to help someone show their innocence in the current system. CJIS just killed any notion of that fail safe in requiring only one user to authorize it.

This system REALLY needs a public review period. Hear that CJIS????

 

[Emoto]

Great, they really thought through this one.

• Pick random LTC ID
• Transfer firearm to that person
• Don't actually transfer anything
• Person has that firearm on their record
• Profit...

This is why they have public comment periods...

Along the same lines, if there is no "original" with a signature of the buyer, a buyer could claim that they did not buy any such firearm, that there must have been a typo in the LTC number when input that the seller didn't catch.

 

[economist]

Yup, even if the DB knows the info already there is a signature component to help someone show their innocence in the current system. CJIS just killed any notion of that fail safe in requiring only one user to authorize it.

This system REALLY needs a public review period. Hear that CJIS????

I don't know. This seems to even further undermine the integrity and reliability of the data. That, ultimately, can't be a bad thing. Sure, they can screw you, but they can always find a way to do that if they want -- we're talking about government here.

 

[Len-2A Training]

DAMN, I forgot to ask him if you can save it as a PDF to your own computer in case you can’t print at the time you do the online form. I just sent Jason an Email and asked that one and will post back when I get an answer.

. . . and the answer is . . .

YES, you can save the filled out e-FA-10 form as a PDF on your computer and thus archive or Email it to the other party.

I've subsequently asked Jason about any safeguards to prevent fraudulent transfers as mentioned by others. Will report that one when he responds.

 

[Emoto]

Mods, can we merge these 2 threads?

 

[JFR2]

+1 to Len for tracking that info down.

-JR

 

[Len-2A Training]

Side topic:

Jason and I got into a "spirited discussion" about guns that a MA Resident purchases out of state and the need to report them to MA within 7 days of PURCHASE.

IANAL, but I contend that if a MA Resident obtains a gun outside of MA and keeps it outside of MA (let’s say a second home in another state), there is NO REQUIREMENT to report such acquisition to MA until/unless the gun is brought into MA for the first time.

Jason vehemently disagrees, citing C. 140 S. 128B.

Jason contends that since you are a MA Resident you must report everything you own, no matter what state it is kept in, all within 7 days of acquisition.

I contend that “. . . and receives such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, within the commonwealth shall within seven days after receiving such firearm, rifle, shotgun or machine gun, report, in writing, to the commissioner of the department of criminal justice information services. . . “ this means one must report it within 7 days of the gun crossing the MA border ONLY (and report that as the date of “acquisition”)! [Quote is part of S. 128B. This is one of those “I report, you decide” issues.]

Well, I again asked Jason to look at the 128B quote above and re-think his position.

He just replied that he agrees with me that the law ONLY requires the FA-10 WHEN a gun is brought into MA (wrt a Resident leaving it permanently in another state).

Sometimes we win one!

 

[Kevlar]

Len, though I may not like some of the answers (i.e. eFA-10s), I do appreciate you asking these questions. +1

 

[josh2600]

Great, they really thought through this one.

• Pick random LTC ID
• Transfer firearm to that person
• Don't actually transfer anything
• Person has that firearm on their record
• Profit...

This is why they have public comment periods...

This is a good point. Are we going to be able to log in somewhere to check what the state has for guns registered to us? Like how one may check their credit report to see if someone is using their identity to make purchases etc.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Len, though I may not like some of the answers (i.e. eFA-10s), I do appreciate you asking these questions. +1

You (and everyone else) are welcome.

I don't like some of the answers and some of the "pronouncements" we've seen over the past few years either.

 

[Len-2A Training]

This is a good point. Are we going to be able to log in somewhere to check what the state has for guns registered to us? Like how one may check their credit report to see if someone is using their identity to make purchases etc.

See my prior answers. NO! For security and privacy reasons, you will not be able to do any searches of the database. You can fill out a form, get it Notarized and send it with a check for $20.00 (IIRC) to get that info.

 

[josh2600]

No need to yell, what i asked and what you previously said aren't quite the same thing

Thanks for finding out about all this and bothering to post it for us, its appreciated.

 

[economist]

See my prior answers. NO! For security and privacy reasons, you will not be able to do any searches of the database. You can fill out a form, get it Notarized and send it with a check for $20.00 (IIRC) to get that info.

This all would be funny if it were not such an invasion of privacy to begin with.

Right now, you can write someone's LTC number on an FA-10 and sign them up for possession of any gun you can imagine. Just check off "registration" and the only information in the form is information on the gun and their LTC number, address, etc. So, just to be clear, right now with the paper FA-10, assuming you have someone's LTC number, address, etc, you can register guns to them with a postage stamp.

It seems like the new system requires you to know their PIN number as well. And with that, you can assign them any number of guns.

One more time: The only "security" keeping someone from corrupting the database with phony registrations and transfers is possession of an LTC number (and maybe a PIN when this online thing gets going). Anyone who has done a personal transfer has an FA-10 copy with someone else's LTC number on it. The system is functionally insecure right now, and anyone can corrupt the data at will.

But, the excuse for not letting us use our LTC number and PIN to see what is in the database under our name is that doing so would be insecure or violate privacy. Really.

This stupid policy of registration into a database (never mind that it's functionally useless and insecure) is the privacy violation in the first place.

 

[SemiAutoSam]

Just curious, how is your occupation or employer the business of who ever this form is transmitted to ?

I see that the SSN is optional thats surprising.

 

[Len-2A Training]

This all would be funny if it were not such an invasion of privacy to begin with.

Right now, you can write someone's LTC number on an FA-10 and sign them up for possession of any gun you can imagine. Just check off "registration" and the only information in the form is information on the gun and their LTC number, address, etc. So, just to be clear, right now with the paper FA-10, assuming you have someone's LTC number, address, etc, you can register guns to them with a postage stamp.

It seems like the new system requires you to know their PIN number as well. And with that, you can assign them any number of guns.

One more time: The only "security" keeping someone from corrupting the database with phony registrations and transfers is possession of an LTC number (and maybe a PIN when this online thing gets going). Anyone who has done a personal transfer has an FA-10 copy with someone else's LTC number on it. The system is functionally insecure right now, and anyone can corrupt the data at will.

But, the excuse for not letting us use our LTC number and PIN to see what is in the database under our name is that doing so would be insecure or violate privacy. Really.

This stupid policy of registration into a database (never mind that it's functionally useless and insecure) is the privacy violation in the first place.

Please re-read my later replies. Jason confirmed that ONLY the SELLER needs the PIN # to log in. I'll assume on a Registration, it would be the New Owner. So if I'm selling I don't need your PIN, only LTC, etc.

The paper system now is subject to forgery and the new system won't be any different.

I am NOT a computer security expert, but from what I was told, by only allowing us to input and not get any output (search), it provides a bit of security against hackers. If we could pull data by PIN, they worry that it won't be easier to compromise he data.

Steve Rambam does a seminar to PIs/LEOs "Privacy is Dead, Get Over it!" . . . we are there folks. We have no privacy, none at all. This system won't improve that and it probably won't make it any worse either. [I'm a huge advocate of privacy, but I might was well be tilting at windmills.]

Just curious, how is your occupation or employer the business of who ever this form is transmitted to ?

I see that the SSN is optional thats surprising.

I had Jason REMOVE the SSN totally from the FA-10 forms (online currently and dealer print-out) back in January. He's a man of his word and promised me it would be done by then and it has been done. The old paper forms (and PDF) are vintage 1998 and don't reflect this.

 

[terraformer]

There is a difference with this new version of forgery. On the paper forms a signature was required. Hence you had a chance of clearing your name. On the new ones there is no signature required or the online corollary of a login... The ability to clear your name? Zero.

 

[economist]

Please re-read my later replies. Jason confirmed that ONLY the SELLER needs the PIN # to log in. I'll assume on a Registration, it would be the New Owner. So if I'm selling I don't need your PIN, only LTC, etc.

Noted, but I was imagining a registration only. On a paper form, all you need is someone's LTC number (and address, etc) to register a gun to them and you can do it without identifying anything about yourself. For the new online system, that's a bit harder to do because you would need the PIN to do a simple registration. A sale, however, could be done to anyone if you know their LTC number, but that would require you to enter your own number and PIN.

There is a difference with this new version of forgery. On the paper forms a signature was required. Hence you had a chance of clearing your name. On the new ones there is no signature required or the online corollary of a login... The ability to clear your name? Zero.

I thought about that, but as it is are these people even saving paper forms for reference if a dispute were to arise? Or do they scan the signature along with everything else? Naturally, they can't be using the signature for verification purposes, so as you say it would only be useful in a dispute later.

Now in the new system, as the old, the blatant lack of security can be used as part of a defense. For anything that made it to trial, it would be trivial (with money, of course) to hire a computer security expect who, with minimal discovery, could shred the reliability of the system for just about any purpose.

 

[KenK]

Well that sure doesn't gave us a warm fuzzy feeling on this one!!!
I have to send an FA10 in on Tuesday. I wouldn't dare use a new system till we hear back as to how bad it is???
I bet they didn't put a lot of thought into it??
I would think you would get some kind of receipt of the entry.
But you don't now. But I always ask for delivery confirmation.
KK

 

[Kicker96FS]

Hell, I "registered" two long guns with a FID card that was "expired/inactive".

The fact that the card was inactive was unknown to me and the reason was that the issuing PD, miss-spelled my name, put a non-existent expiration date, another words, the officer screwed it up royally and when I asked him about it he told me it was fine. I didn't find out until I moved and let the PD know. The girl looked at the card, typed in the number and called the CHB right there. They said it was expired the same day it was issued! 4 years I had that card and the gestapo never kicked my door down!

So you tell me, what good is it all anyways?

 

[terraformer]

Hell, I "registered" two long guns with a FID card that was "expired/inactive".

The fact that the card was inactive was unknown to me and the reason was that the issuing PD, miss-spelled my name, put a non-existent expiration date, another words, the officer screwed it up royally and when I asked him about it he told me it was fine. I didn't find out until I moved and let the PD know. The girl looked at the card, typed in the number and called the CHB right there. They said it was expired the same day it was issued! 4 years I had that card and the gestapo never kicked my door down!

So you tell me, what good is it all anyways?

I think that is par for the course. Now get it admitted in court if you are a person who the system hasn't appeared to screw over via incompetence. The problem here is the threat of criminal liability.