101st Airborne 1st to be issued M17-M18 (Sig) 9mm

[Rat187]

HP ammo Geneva convention legal ?

Soldiers with the U.S. Army’s 101st Airborne Division have been the first to receive the service’s’ new nine-millimeter pistol. Weapons developers and soldiers say the new M17 and M18 pistol, designed as a followup handgun to the Army’s current M9 Beretta, is expected to change combat tactics and techniques.

“You can close with the enemy in close quarter combat and engage the enemy with one hand. It is tough to do this with the M9,” said Lt. Col. Martin O’Donnell, spokesman for the 101st Airborne.

The new pistol is built with a more ergonomic configuration to better accommodate hand grip techniques for soldiers and rapid hand switching in combat. Developers say the M17 brings much tighter dispersion, improved versatility and accuracy.

“With this weapon, you can change quickly from right hand to left hand. If you are shooting something that is not comfortable on your hand and can’t get a comfortable grip, it is not as accurate,” said Sgt. 1st Class Andrew Flynn, 101st Division Master Gunner.

The new handguns are built with an external safety, self-illuminating sights for low-light conditions, an integrated rail for attachments and an Army standard suppressor conversion kit to attach an acoustic/flash suppressor. “It increases target recognition and increases capability with night sights,” Lt. Col. Steven Power, an Army weapons product manager, said.

The Army is now buying thousands of full-size XM17 and compact XM18 versions of the new nine-millimeter pistol. The XM17 fires 147 grain jacketed hollow-point ammunition.

 

[appraiser]

I thought JHP was a no no under the Geneva Convention?

Ball ammo only

 

[AKOK74]

We never ratified Protocol I or II just signed them.

 

[Glockster30]

I thought JHP was a no no under the Geneva Convention?

Ball ammo only

HP were banned earlier in The Hague Convention of 1899. US never ratified it.

 

[E.Stoner]

Looks like they could do some work on the "hand grip techneques"
http://www.guns.com/2017/11/30/firs...ake-the-field-with-the-101st-airborne-videos/

 

[Picton]

When the 101st actually sends its average 11B Joes into a shoot house to do focused CQB, live-fire, while “changing quickly from right hand to left hand,” let me know. I’m not holding my breath. I’m not convinced 11 average Army guys with handguns is ever a good idea.

Personally, I’d prefer a rifle over a pistol 100% of the time when in MOUT. So does the Army, doctrinally.

 

[Rat187]

Love the colonial language....I believe the “fanatical barbarian” means the Philippine Moro warrior....If I have my firearms history right this gave birth to John Browning’s masterpiece, the Colt 1911 .45 acp

From Wiki:

During the Hague Convention of 1899, the British delegation attempted to justify the use of the dumdum bullet by pointing to its utility when putting down colonial unrest. Barbara Tuchman writes that, "Developed by the British to stop the rush of fanatical tribesman, the bullets were vigorously defended by Sir John Ardagh against the heated attack of all except the American military delegate, Captain Crozier, whose country was about to make use of them in the Philippines. In warfare against savages, Ardagh explained to an absorbed audience, 'men penetrated through and through several times by our latest pattern of small calibre projectiles, which make small clean holes,' were nevertheless able to rush on and come to close quarters. Some means had to be found to stop them. 'The civilized soldier when shot recognizes that he is wounded and knows that the sooner he is attended to the sooner he will recover. He lies down on his stretcher and is taken off the field to his ambulance, where he is dressed or bandaged. Your fanatical barbarian, similarly wounded, continues to rush on, spear or sword in hand; and before you have the time to represent to him that his conduct is in flagrant violation of the understanding relative to the proper course for the wounded man to follow—he may have cut off your head.'"[19] However, the rest of the delegates at the Hague Convention 1899 did not accept this justification and voted 22–2 to prohibit the future use of the dumdum bullet.

 

[HiCap]

If the 101st drops a M17(P320) out of an aircraft, does it create something similar to a nuclear detonation upon impact with the ground??

 

[amm5061]

Love the colonial language....I believe the “fanatical barbarian” means the Philippine Moro warrior....If I have my firearms history right this gave birth to John Browning’s masterpiece, the Colt 1911 .45 acp

Yup. The Army switched to the .45 ACP Colt 1911 after they found that the .38 Special revolvers that had been standard issue lacked the capacity and stopping power needed to bring down the Filipino guerrillas.

 

[Rat187]

Yup. The Army switched to the .45 ACP Colt 1911 after they found that the .38 Special revolvers that had been standard issue lacked the capacity and stopping power needed to bring down the Filipino guerrillas.

Read ‘Moro’ Invaded invaded the Philippines in the 14th century

 

[whacko]

Looks like they could do some work on the "hand grip techneques"
http://www.guns.com/2017/11/30/firs...ake-the-field-with-the-101st-airborne-videos/

Well....considering your average Soldier in the Army that is issued a side arm fires 80 rounds (not a typeo.....it's 80 rounds) a year training with it.....you get what you get.

Special operations units actually do some training with side arms. In line units....95% of em are issued to commanders, staff officers, and senior enlisted staff NCOs.

 

[fencer]

Maura should call the Joint Chiefs and tell them they should only be issued with 10 round magazines.

 

[weekendracer]

I've always been of the opinion that if a regular army grunt is using a pistol, things have gone horribly wrong.

 

[tuna]

How long before the first one is found in the porta potty?

 

[cams]

When is the 101st Airborne actually going to be Airborne again?

 

[browncoat]

HP were banned earlier in The Hague Convention of 1899. US never ratified it.

Not only that, but many countries consider the ban on expanding ammunition to only apply to offensive weapons not pistols

 

[crazymjb]

Well....considering your average Soldier in the Army that is issued a side arm fires 80 rounds (not a typeo.....it's 80 rounds) a year training with it.....you get what you get.

Special operations units actually do some training with side arms. In line units....95% of em are issued to commanders, staff officers, and senior enlisted staff NCOs.

I had an M9 a couple times as stateside as security when we were moving on a chartered bus with weapons. I have yet to ever shoot one and never shot one when I was in. Fortunately, I shoot mainly pistol at the range, but as far as the USMC was concerned I had never fired a pistol. Granted, It wasn't issued, it was handed off to me by the Plt Sgt.

Very little need for grunts to have pistols. Unless I were doing a lot of CQB I'd prefer to save the hassle and weight.

Mike

 

[whacko]

I had an M9 a couple times as stateside as security when we were moving on a chartered bus with weapons. I have yet to ever shoot one and never shot one when I was in. Fortunately, I shoot mainly pistol at the range, but as far as the USMC was concerned I had never fired a pistol. Granted, It wasn't issued, it was handed off to me by the Plt Sgt.

Very little need for grunts to have pistols. Unless I were doing a lot of CQB I'd prefer to save the hassle and weight.

Mike

As would I as a Soldier.....but here on NES among non veterans you'd think the choice of side arm by the military is what's going to win or lose the next war! The FACT is, however, the vast majority of side arms sit in drop rigs and shoulder holsters of the folks most UNLIKELY to ever fire a shot in combat

 

[whacko]

I've always been of the opinion that if a regular army grunt is using a pistol, things have gone horribly wrong.

You got that right.

 

[whacko]

When is the 101st Airborne actually going to be Airborne again?

Too chicken to jump.....to lazy to walk.....AIR ASSAULT!

 

[crazymjb]

As would I as a Soldier.....but here on NES among non veterans you'd think the choice of side arm by the military is what's going to win or lose the next war! The FACT is, however, the vast majority of side arms sit in drop rigs and shoulder holsters of the folks most UNLIKELY to ever fire a shot in combat

It is true that it's easier to carry to the chow-hall.

Mike

 

[Rat187]

Believe me when a Huey crashes your 1911 gets ejected with you and is your only force multiplier. until the calvery comes ....lol

 

[Dradian]

Update: looks like the M18 passed testing as well.

SIG SAUER M18 Sets New Standard for U.S. Army’s Modular Handgun System (MHS) Reliability Testing - Soldier Systems Daily

 

[voidoid]

"The recent MHS Material Reliability Test consisted of firing three M18 pistols to an unprecedented 12,000 rounds each, and in an extraordinary display of reliability, the M18 performed with zero stoppages."

Unprecedented??? The M9 far surpassed this!

 

[rwl1955]

Well....considering your average Soldier in the Army that is issued a side arm fires 80 rounds (not a typeo.....it's 80 rounds) a year training with it.....you get what you get.

Special operations units actually do some training with side arms. In line units....95% of em are issued to commanders, staff officers, and senior enlisted staff NCOs.

No Soldier under Staff Sergeant was issued a M9 in my day. I watched the 2002 Super Bowl in the mess hall on Camp Comanche in Bosnia with my M9 thou.

 

[whacko]

No Soldier under Staff Sergeant was issued a M9 in my day. I watched the 2002 Super Bowl in the mess hall on Camp Comanche in Bosnia with my M9 thou.

Mp all are issued a side arm. Also mechanics in the wrecker / recovery slot are issued a side arm in maintenance companies (can't really sling a rifle when your job in a hot area outside the wire is hooking up chains and such on a disabled vehicle).

 

[rwl1955]

Mp all are issued a side arm. Also mechanics in the wrecker / recovery slot are issued a side arm in maintenance companies (can't really sling a rifle when your job in a hot area outside the wire is hooking up chains and such on a disabled vehicle).

I should have said 11B's.

 

[Dradian]

"The recent MHS Material Reliability Test consisted of firing three M18 pistols to an unprecedented 12,000 rounds each, and in an extraordinary display of reliability, the M18 performed with zero stoppages."

Unprecedented??? The M9 far surpassed this!

are you sure? the testing protocol allows for up to 12 stoppages.

I don't recall the Beretta surpassing that protocol in the LAT(or having zero). I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong, I like the 92 as much as anyone.

It does look like the M17/M18 are doing well so far.

The success of the MHS program, and the performance of both the M17 and M18 pistols, was further confirmed in the recently published Director of Operation Testing and Evaluation (DOT&E) Annual Report, which provides an independent review and analysis of the U.S. Department of Defense weapons systems. The report states that, “the MHS meets or exceeds requirements for accuracy, lethality, ergonomics, and safety,” in addition to stating that, “both the XM17 and the XM18 are operationally effective and suitable.”

Edit: I guess you were right, I found an article from Beretta claiming they pushed their newest entry into the program to 19k rounds. Although not an official test, by a third party...I dont doubt them.

 

[StevieP]

My next gun will be the P320-M17, with the next gen Romeo1T sight on it.

I'd been scouting a regular P320 RX, but really like the FDE vs black. Was gonna buy a regular P320 and get a different grip frame, but the M17 version is GTG. Just have to add the reflex sight, but the slide is already milled for it.

P320-M17

 

[Dradian]

My next gun will be the P320-M17, with the next gen Romeo1T sight on it.

I'd been scouting a regular P320 RX, but really like the FDE vs black. Was gonna buy a regular P320 and get a different grip frame, but the M17 version is GTG. Just have to add the reflex sight, but the slide is already milled for it.

The new Aimpoint Acro would also be fit on the M17