10/22 worn extractor?

[jefftk]

Does this extractor look worn?

You can see the bottom edge is rounded on it (bottom left side as shown in picture).

I've been having some ejection issues lately. Seems like it started few months ago at a Winterseed event - I was getting lots of stovepipes or spent cases otherwise not fully ejecting, and usually the next round did get inserted in to the chamber/barrel. Figured maybe it was just snow/ice.

Shot it once again after that (and after cleaning thoroughly) with the same box of ammo and still had several FTEs. Ammo was Federal Automatch bulk pack. I'm pretty sure I had shot with that brand of ammo before with no issues though.

Shot it again today, with some .22 Thunderbolt and some Winchester bulk pack hollow points.... didn't have any problems with the thunderbolt but had a couple FTEs with the winchester....
I think the thunderbolts are a little more powerful, so I guess it would make sense they would be less susceptible to having ejection issues.

But, regardless of ammo differences, I'm curious if that extractor looking like its worn could really be the cause of the ejection issues?

 

[Dadstoys]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/36...ger-10-22-10-22-magnum-mark-ii-mark-iii-22-45

Try this one.
Worked great on mine.

 

[jtnf]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/36...ger-10-22-10-22-magnum-mark-ii-mark-iii-22-45

Try this one.
Worked great on mine.

I can't speak to the 10/22 specifically, but the VQ extractor on my MkIII made a world of difference. Volquartsen cuts these with wire EDM, rather than fine blanking or stamping. Wire EDM leaves both edges sharp, whereas stamping tends to create one rolled edge and a burr on the other edge.

 

[jefftk]

I can't speak to the 10/22 specifically, but the VQ extractor on my MkIII made a world of difference. Volquartsen cuts these with wire EDM, rather than fine blanking or stamping. Wire EDM leaves both edges sharp, whereas stamping tends to create one rolled edge and a burr on the other edge.

If stamping creates a rolled edge, does what I have pictured just look like a normal factory stamped extractor?

 

[Royal]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/36...ger-10-22-10-22-magnum-mark-ii-mark-iii-22-45

Try this one.
Worked great on mine.

This and don't look back.

 

[jtnf]

If stamping creates a rolled edge, does what I have pictured just look like what a normal factory stamped extractor?

No - Pictured is WAY more than the rolled edge of a healthy stamping die.


This is a pretty good overview - Figure 1 shows a cross section of a punched part, and what the edge conditions will look like.
http://www.thefabricator.com/article/stamping/blanking-questions-have-you-on-the-edger

 

[dcmdon]

I'm 99% sure that the 10/22 and the Mk / 22-45 both use the same extractor.

Power custom and Volqhartsen make good ones.

 

[jefftk]

Yeah, I ordered the volquartsen one from Midway, it was listed as for the 10/22 or Mk III

 

[jefftk]

Tested out the 10/22-TD with the new extractor (and spring) today. Worked great. Went through at least a hundred rounds each of the Federal auto match (Cabelas had a bunch of 325 rd packs as of noon yesterday) and the winchester stuff - no malfunctions. Wish I had figured this out before the winterseed!

Volquartsen extractor on the left, worn factory extractor on the right:

 

[jefftk]

I'm 99% sure that the 10/22 and the Mk / 22-45 both use the same extractor.

Power custom and Volqhartsen make good ones.

The package came with an extractor and spring, it said not to use the spring for the MK III / 22/45.

 

[Another_David]

nice, thanks for the update

what I've learned about Volquartsen parts if just order 1 of everything

well slight exaggeration but their extractor and auto bolt release are a must have.

their recoil buffer and target hammer with bushings is pretty nice too

 

[jefftk]

nice, thanks for the update

what I've learned about Volquartsen parts if just order 1 of everything

well slight exaggeration but their extractor and auto bolt release are a must have.

their recoil buffer and target hammer with bushings is pretty nice too

I actually got the recoil buffer as well when I ordered the extractor. Not sure if I really needed it or if it made any difference, just figured - why not....

I got the target hammer kit last month, which included the bolt release. Definitely worth it - a noticeable improvement to the trigger. I had already dremeled my factory release to make it an auto-release, but installed the volquartsen one anyways.

 

[Gammon]

I am glad to see you have the problem solved, but would like to add a few words. I have heard more than one expert claim that the extractor doesn't really do anything in the normal firing cycle of a 22 rimfire blowback gun. The gas pressure in the barrel actually blows the case out of the chamber as it forces the bolt to the rear. The extractor earns its keep pulling unfired rounds or duds out of the chamber.

I mention this because there is another solution to these problems. Semi auto rimfire guns are notoriously sensitive to ammo as they need a certain amount of energy to operate the bolt. Another enemy is friction which can be caused by too heavy a lube, especially in cold weather. To insure reliable operation a light weight oil can be a big help. I prefer either 5w or 0w synthetic motor oil.

 

[Another_David]

I am glad to see you have the problem solved, but would like to add a few words. I have heard more than one expert claim that the extractor doesn't really do anything in the normal firing cycle of a 22 rimfire blowback gun. The gas pressure in the barrel actually blows the case out of the chamber as it forces the bolt to the rear. The extractor earns its keep pulling unfired rounds or duds out of the chamber.

I mention this because there is another solution to these problems. Semi auto rimfire guns are notoriously sensitive to ammo as they need a certain amount of energy to operate the bolt. Another enemy is friction which can be caused by too heavy a lube, especially in cold weather. To insure reliable operation a light weight oil can be a big help. I prefer either 5w or 0w synthetic motor oil.

It may be true about the extractor but his old one was warn pretty badly and even looks a little bowed so it could have been impeding the movement of the bolt as it blows back.

I use only dry lube with Teflon on my 10/22 bolt and no oil at all. Same with the Walther p22.

 

[exo]

I am glad to see you have the problem solved, but would like to add a few words. I have heard more than one expert claim that the extractor doesn't really do anything in the normal firing cycle of a 22 rimfire blowback gun. The gas pressure in the barrel actually blows the case out of the chamber as it forces the bolt to the rear. The extractor earns its keep pulling unfired rounds or duds out of the chamber.

I mention this because there is another solution to these problems. Semi auto rimfire guns are notoriously sensitive to ammo as they need a certain amount of energy to operate the bolt. Another enemy is friction which can be caused by too heavy a lube, especially in cold weather. To insure reliable operation a light weight oil can be a big help. I prefer either 5w or 0w synthetic motor oil.

Then why are lots and lots of people with 10/22 or Mk-III extraction problems able to solve them by replacing the extractor?

- - - Updated - - -

Shot it again today, with some .22 Thunderbolt

Everything I hear about Thunderbolt is that it is the worst, least consistent .22 ammo ever made.

 

[Gammon]

Then why are lots and lots of people with 10/22 or Mk-III extraction problems able to solve them by replacing the extractor?

- - - Updated - - -



Everything I hear about Thunderbolt is that it is the worst, least consistent .22 ammo ever made.

No idea about the extractor swapping solution. I only mentioned light lube as a possible solution because it has worked for me in several blow back guns.

 

[jefftk]

Everything I hear about Thunderbolt is that it is the worst, least consistent .22 ammo ever made.

Well, I didn't do any group analysis on it, but I was actually surprised that I had no malfunctions with it since - like you - I had a pretty low opinion about it.

 

[jefftk]

I am glad to see you have the problem solved, but would like to add a few words. I have heard more than one expert claim that the extractor doesn't really do anything in the normal firing cycle of a 22 rimfire blowback gun. The gas pressure in the barrel actually blows the case out of the chamber as it forces the bolt to the rear. The extractor earns its keep pulling unfired rounds or duds out of the chamber.

I mention this because there is another solution to these problems. Semi auto rimfire guns are notoriously sensitive to ammo as they need a certain amount of energy to operate the bolt. Another enemy is friction which can be caused by too heavy a lube, especially in cold weather. To insure reliable operation a light weight oil can be a big help. I prefer either 5w or 0w synthetic motor oil.

I had read the explanation that the extractor does not do much, and instead the blowback is the main contributor to extraction, and that a dirty gun or otherwise impeded bolt would be a likely culprit before I posted this thread.

I would have been content to chalk it up to lube or dirty bolt issues if the malfunctions only occurred during the winter, but it persisted.

I have been using either Hoppes lubrication oil, or CLP break-free, and generally try to keep it pretty clean.


Like I said, the thunderbolt seemed to run fine before I swapped the extractor, so that lends credibility to the argument that it was only an ammo issue. However I had fired plenty of different varieties of ammo in previous years without issues.
Maybe the extractor is doing more than people give it credit for on the less powerful rounds.

Shot it again today, with only American Eagle, and did not have any extraction issues.

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

I am glad to see you have the problem solved, but would like to add a few words. I have heard more than one expert claim that the extractor doesn't really do anything in the normal firing cycle of a 22 rimfire blowback gun. The gas pressure in the barrel actually blows the case out of the chamber as it forces the bolt to the rear. The extractor earns its keep pulling unfired rounds or duds out of the chamber.

I mention this because there is another solution to these problems. Semi auto rimfire guns are notoriously sensitive to ammo as they need a certain amount of energy to operate the bolt. Another enemy is friction which can be caused by too heavy a lube, especially in cold weather. To insure reliable operation a light weight oil can be a big help. I prefer either 5w or 0w synthetic motor oil.

I have spent some time with the 10/22 design, kind of reverse engineering it from one end to the other.

The 10/22 is an open bolt, blow-back design. Nothing locks the bolt closed. The only thing keeping the bolt closed when firing is the spring on the charging handle and the inertia of the bolt.

There is no gas system or other mechanical system to convert recoil into bolt movement. The only way the bolt moves is from the case pushing on it. This means that the extractor is not pulling the case out of the chamber, except in situations where the bolt is being operated by the charging handle.

So why have an extractor?

While the case is being blown out of the chamber, there needs to be something that keeps the case stuck to the bolt face until it reaches the ejector pin. That causes the case to yaw right, unhook from the extractor, and exit through the ejection port.

Without the extractor the case would tend to follow the bolt back, and bounce off the bolt when it reaches the end of its travel. If it hits the pin, it ejects, if not, it just sort of rattles around inside the receiver resulting in jams.

With a worn extractor, the case isn't always kept against the bolt face. When it is, all is well. When it slips out, you get jams.

The wear on the extractor is on the bottom side because the extractor does not pop over the case rim (bad idea on rim-fire). It is slipped under the extractor as the case feeds up from the magazine.

The magazine is also critical for positioning the bolt. Never try to fire a 10/22 without a magazine. If you stuff a cartridge into the chamber and then let the bolt slingshot home without a magazine installed, there is a very good chance that the bolt will sag into the magazine well, causing the top of the bolt face to pinch the rim against the barrel breach and cause a slam fire. With the magazine in place, the feed lips prevent the bolt from sagging and pinching the case rim. You still have the risk that the extractor will act as a firing pin while popping over the rim, but it is a smaller risk unless you have really stiffened up the extractor springs. There is a reason Ruger sells single shot magazines.

 

[jefftk]

Without the extractor the case would tend to follow the bolt back, and bounce off the bolt when it reaches the end of its travel. If it hits the pin, it ejects, if not, it just sort of rattles around inside the receiver resulting in jams.

With a worn extractor, the case isn't always kept against the bolt face. When it is, all is well. When it slips out, you get jams.

I think this is probably what was happening to me. With most of the malfunctions the case was stuck between the breech ad bolt face, still pointing in the same direction in line with the barrel - which I think would indicate it never hit the ejector. There were some legitimate stovepipes as well.

 

[exo]

I have spent some time with the 10/22 design, kind of reverse engineering it from one end to the other.

The 10/22 is an open bolt, blow-back design. Nothing locks the bolt closed. The only thing keeping the bolt closed when firing is the spring on the charging handle and the inertia of the bolt.

There is no gas system or other mechanical system to convert recoil into bolt movement. The only way the bolt moves is from the case pushing on it. This means that the extractor is not pulling the case out of the chamber, except in situations where the bolt is being operated by the charging handle.

So why have an extractor?

While the case is being blown out of the chamber, there needs to be something that keeps the case stuck to the bolt face until it reaches the ejector pin. That causes the case to yaw right, unhook from the extractor, and exit through the ejection port.

Without the extractor the case would tend to follow the bolt back, and bounce off the bolt when it reaches the end of its travel. If it hits the pin, it ejects, if not, it just sort of rattles around inside the receiver resulting in jams.

With a worn extractor, the case isn't always kept against the bolt face. When it is, all is well. When it slips out, you get jams.

The wear on the extractor is on the bottom side because the extractor does not pop over the case rim (bad idea on rim-fire). It is slipped under the extractor as the case feeds up from the magazine.

The magazine is also critical for positioning the bolt. Never try to fire a 10/22 without a magazine. If you stuff a cartridge into the chamber and then let the bolt slingshot home without a magazine installed, there is a very good chance that the bolt will sag into the magazine well, causing the top of the bolt face to pinch the rim against the barrel breach and cause a slam fire. With the magazine in place, the feed lips prevent the bolt from sagging and pinching the case rim. You still have the risk that the extractor will act as a firing pin while popping over the rim, but it is a smaller risk unless you have really stiffened up the extractor springs. There is a reason Ruger sells single shot magazines.

Very interesting thank you.