‘Open Carry’ Gun Fight Moves to Target Stores

I'm as hardcore a 2nd amendment supporter as they come but carrying a loaded Ak in a store is just plain stupid. I understand wanting to make a statement and exercising your rights, but this guy is intentionally trying to scare the sheep and daring someone to call the cops.

If I'm shopping in the store where this moron is carrying a loaded Ak, I'm not interested in sticking around to see what his intentions are. He and I are of the same 2A support but there's no reason for him to be OCing an Ak in Target. All this will do is hurt our ability to educate the public and the anti's will use guys like this as the typical agenda of all gun owners.

Dude, you sound like a politician. "I support the 2nd amendment, but..."
 
Dude, you sound like a politician. "I support the 2nd amendment, but..."

Yep.

And people really need to stop calling something a right when they clearly think it is a privilege. If you don't think someone should do something because it may lead to it being taken away, then you don't think it is a right and certainly don't support it as one. So call it what you think it is and stop pretending. Not everyone is fooled.
 
Yep.

And people really need to stop calling something a right when they clearly think it is a privilege. If you don't think someone should do something because it may lead to it being taken away, then you don't think it is a right and certainly don't support it as one. So call it what you think it is and stop pretending. Not everyone is fooled.

This "issue" isn't so much as rights vs privileges as it is about unintended consequences of someone prancing around like a phaggot inside target with an AK. It's not the guy minding his own business shopping that is the problem either, its the brand of phaggot who thinks its cool to take a selfie while posing with an AK inside Target. Those people are NOT helping. Thankfully in most of the places where these kinds of things are occurring, legislators probably won't go full retard and overreact. Problem is I can easily see businesses doing so. I can see uninterested businesses putting up "no guns allowed" signs... while you and I would just ignore the damned things, "joe freshly minted CCW citizen guy" that is mindlessly obeisant to such things will think he can't carry inside the place, whether it's legally true or not. Then he sees enough of these stupid signs and leaves his gun at home. Then he tells other people "don't bother getting a CCW, every other store bans guns blah blah blah mlarc!" etc.

Some of these OC protesters are fine. Others, I honestly think antis are putting them up to it at this point hoping for a negative reaction.

-Mike
 
Advancing causes and unintended consequences are not relevant to ones right to do or not do something.

Strictly speaking, you're 100% right, but when you're supposedly doing this for political reasons, why would you want to do something in a manner that's potentially counterproductive for your cause? The people doing this are (supposedly) doing this as a form of protest. This isn't a soccer mom with an AK underfolder on her back minding her own business going shopping. We're seeing pictures of phaggots in burger kings or whatever waving rifles around taking pictures, like they just stormed ramadi looking for the next bladder of gravy refill for their camelbak.

-Mike
 
Again, it doesn't matter why. They either do or do not have the right. Rights are not conditional to any cause.

Referring to those who do something you disagree with as 'phaggots' is telling enough of your position. You don't think people have the right.
 
Again, it doesn't matter why. They either do or do not have the right. Rights are not conditional to any cause.

Referring to those who do something you disagree with as 'phaggots' is telling enough of your position. You don't think people have the right.
You do not have rights except in a philosophy discussion.

There are things you can do that will not bring the overwhelming force of the state down upon you, and things that will not. Any other distinction is just a matter of semantics.
 
A 6th grader can see the OC TX people are pissing on their own picnic. the moonbats love to snap photos of an AK-47 in a target.....the goal here is to scare away all the ambivalent people to their side.

my family are pro-2A but not gun nerds like me or you. if they were in a target and saw a dude with a rifle they would freak out. no they wouldn't call 911 or scream, but they would want to get away from that person......this is the mindset of many middle-ground moderates who can be pushed in either direction on the OC topic.

if the OC people got together and carried outside or somewhere they won't freak the shit out of unsuspecting folks then i would support them. but carrying an AK in a target is a guaranteed way to scare a bunch of soccer moms who might have been on our side if the OC issue were broached in a more strategic manner.
 
thread is full of victim blaming

Make OC of a handgun legal in Texas and there is no more of this.

the OC Texas people are being oppressed and all we can do is ****ing bitch at them

brilliant
 
I'm as hardcore a 2nd amendment supporter as they come but carrying a loaded Ak in a store is just plain stupid. I understand wanting to make a statement and exercising your rights, but this guy is intentionally trying to scare the sheep and daring someone to call the cops.

If I'm shopping in the store where this moron is carrying a loaded Ak, I'm not interested in sticking around to see what his intentions are. He and I are of the same 2A support but there's no reason for him to be OCing an Ak in Target. All this will do is hurt our ability to educate the public and the anti's will use guys like this as the typical agenda of all gun owners.

1. 6 month old thread resurrection.
2. New user Jan 2015, only this post.
3. Somewhat Volatile topic among us.
4. [troll]?
 
1. 6 month old thread resurrection. 2. New user Jan 2015, only this post. 3. Somewhat Volatile topic among us. 4. [troll]?

1. New poster with a valid point of view
2. A very relevant topic
3. Gotta start somewhere
4. Kaldone NES dog pile the noob flame boy because noob doesn't subscribe to NES group think? God Forbid we don't conform to all this self styled Libertarian thinking. Anyone going against the grain is a troll.
 
The argument FOR these seemingly outrageous OC incidents is MA law.

We now have to hide our rifles or we are in violation of the law. Despite no law against open carry of pistols, you are likely to lose your LTC for doing so.

The law has overreacted to criminalize normal, harmless behavior. So, here we are.

Is OC of an AK in Target over the top? Yep.
Is the law itself over the top? Yep.

So, these guys are doing something to wake people up to this fact in their states before they end up with laws like MA.

If, as some claim, this "forces legislation", then that too is good in the long term because courts and legislatures will be forced to place themselves on one side of the Constitution or the other. Vagueness and deferring decisions make challenges difficult.

The same rule as always, if your statement of support of 2A includes "but", then you don't.
 
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I total agree with you. I dont think they realize they are hurting the cause, rather than helping it.
Yeah, freedom to do what you want is good, unless I don't like it!

I think a lot of them just want the publicity. If they wanted to further 2A rights, I agree with you that the backlash from their efforts may create resistance to action on other more important fronts.

The National Rifle Association last week warned Open Carry Texas against staging demonstrations in stores, calling them “downright weird” and “not neighborly.” (Update: The NRA on Tuesday apologized for the comment.)
 
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Yeah, freedom to do what you want is good, unless I don't like it!

I think a lot of them just want the publicity. If they wanted to further 2A rights, I agree with you that the backlash from their efforts may create resistance to action on other more important fronts.
See above - their demonstrations are flamboyant and intimidate people without the courage to do such things, so they look for excuses to differentiate themselves from those willing to make such statements.

I see lots of hang-wringing by people who think we can apologize our way into restoration of our rights.

The backlash is from people who's views of liberty are invalid in a nation described by our Constitution.

You do no have any right to go through life without seeing things that challenge your viewpoint. Abuse of government power to force your mono-culture is precisely what fascism is all about.
 
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BTW, I really love (sarcastically) the argument that legal behavior will force the legislature to write laws that infringe on the right to keep and BEAR arms.

Apology at its finest to say that people should not do things that are LEGAL because ILLEGAL laws might be written to stop them.

I am not saying they won't write those laws. I am saying you are not addressing the problem by hiding in a closet.
 
See above - their demonstrations are flamboyant and intimidate people without the courage to do such things, so they look for excuses to differentiate themselves from those willing to make such statements.

I see lots of hang-wringing by people who think we can apologize our way into restoration of our rights.
If you can explain to me one good reason why anyone in the normal course of their day would carry a long gun into a department store, OK.

Texas bans carry of any sort in bars. So if you had the courage to "restore our rights" wouldn't that be a place to start?

I see them more as like the mall ninjas wearing military uniform items into that same target, then when questioned note they are not veterans but doing so to honor veterans. Bullshit.

But go ahead, take the NRA to task too!
The National Rifle Association last week warned Open Carry Texas against staging demonstrations in stores, calling them “downright weird” and “not neighborly.” (Update: The NRA on Tuesday apologized for the comment.)
They apologized for the "wierd" statement, only.

Chris W. Cox, the executive director of the NRA’s lobbying and policy arm, said the NRA should not have scolded Open Carry Texas as “downright weird” in a Friday posting.
 
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The argument FOR these seemingly outrageous OC incidents is MA law.

We now have to hide our rifles or we are in violation of the law. Despite no law against open carry of pistols, you are likely to lose your LTC for doing so.

The law has overreacted to criminalize normal, harmless behavior. So, here we are.

Is OC of an AK over the top? Yep.
Is the law itself over the top? Yep.

So, these guys are doing something to wake people up to this fact in their states before they end up with laws like MA.

If, as some claim, this "forces legislation", then that too is good in the long term because courts and legislatures will be forced to place themselves on one side of the Constitution or the other. Vagueness and deferring decisions make challenges difficult.

The same rule as always, if your statement of support of 2A includes "but", then you don't.

By your definition, and who are you to decide who supports the 2A or not? Yes the open carry people have the right to carry their AKs or flinlocks or whatever into a Target or Burger King or whatever. I'm not going to dispute that. But what makes you the arbiter of who supports the 2A and who doesn't? The point is that these people are coming across as whack jobs and in the end their efforts and hindering and not helping educate the public on 2A rights.

I can see little good coming from their efforts. Are people's attitudes in Texas shifting towards open carry? Is there effective legislation being proposed in the Texas legislature that has a chance of passing as a result of these actions?

You of all people know the difference between good effective lobbying and persuasion and actions which only generate negative publicity and press.

Don't wax on with one of your lengthy philosophical arguments either, pragmatically is this helping or hurting the OC movement? From my perspective it's not helping and Texas only quite recent allowed CCW. I could carry in May Issue Massachusetts long before I could ever carry concealed in Texas. Their gun laws have become more relaxed and I don't see a backlash happening.
 
If you can explain to me one good reason why anyone in the normal course of their day would carry a long gun into a department store, OK.
1. To force people to address their irrational fears without resorting to violent legislation.
2. I've been outdoors all week carrying said rifle with me and its safer on me than left in a car to be stolen while I shop on my way home.
3. Give me one good reason why a man would wear a dress and heals? (Because he wants to, that's why)
4. Give me one good reason why we should allow people to espouse political ideologies that have murdered 120M+ people in the last 100 years? (Because its their right to express themselves, that's why)

You don't need a good reason to do things that don't hurt other people. PERIOD.

Moreover when you write laws that stop people from doing "flamboyant" but legal things, those laws are abused to prohibit entirely rational behavior that is genuinely in the public's best interest (e.g. preventing theft of rifle from car).
 
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Unfortunatly by allowing gun control we have allowed the RKBA to be treated as a privilege.
When govt. started infringing on the RKBA they should have been removed immediately, unfortunately they weren't and now we have to deal with the chains that have been placed upon us and sadly there are those that support those chains being placed upon us.
 
Don't wax on with one of your lengthy philosophical arguments either, pragmatically is this helping or hurting the OC movement? From my perspective it's not helping and Texas only quite recent allowed CCW. I could carry in May Issue Massachusetts long before I could ever carry concealed in Texas. Their gun laws have become more relaxed and I don't see a backlash happening.
I don't care about the "OC movement". The issue is that society needs to get over its irrational fear and willingness to restrict freedom.

This activity is most certainly forcing that conversation. Not only that, but we've seen again again with various social issues that hiding isn't a viable option. It is victory for the opposition to "hide your shame" and remove whatever it is that makes you different from the public discourse and acceptance.

Again, as we've seen in MA, pushing things out of sight has been REMARKABLY effective for creating forced ignorance of those who do not own firearms into which lies can be spewed and accepted.
 
By your definition, and who are you to decide who supports the 2A or not?
Doesn't the same accusation apply to those claiming that OC "hurts the cause"?

I don't decide for anyone but me, my point is that the apology inherent in "but" is how we got to the point where even "keep" is almost gone in MA and "bear" is a distant memory. We dissembled and cowed to the nonsense rather than demanding our rights.
 
1. To force people to address their irrational fears
2. I've been outdoors all week carrying said rifle with me and its safer on me than left in a car to be stolen while I shop.
3. Give me one good reason why a man would wear a dress and heals? (Because he wants to, that's why)
4. Give me one good reason why we should allow people to espouse political ideologies that have murdered 120M+ people in the last 100 years? (Because its their right to express themselves, that's why)

You don't need a good reason to do things that don't hurt other people. PERIOD.

Moreover when you write laws that stop people from doing "flamboyant" but legal things, those laws are abused to prohibit entirely rational behavior that is genuinely in the public's best interest (preventing theft of rifle from car).

Don't dodge the question: Are the actions of the OC Rifle People in Texas helping or hurting the OC Movement specifically, and giving the 2A a positive image among the indifferent and less committed public, you know, the one's we are trying to cultivate and win hearts and minds?

I feel that they are hurting our cause even though they have the right to do what they do. In the end it is all about them, and yet we bitch about the millenials all the time and how self-centered they are. When somebody walks into a Target with an AK he is representing me as a gun owner to average Joe Citizen and that's not going to sit well with a lot of people, now I'm lumped with this guy who reinforces the idea that we are all whacko wingnuts. It's not that these people don't have the right, but don't you think there might be a better way to get the point across?

Why not adopt a highway and OC your rifles picking up litter along I-10 or something? That I'd buy into more. Do a food drive, deliver blankets to a local homeless shelter with your AR or AK strapped on your back. Look how bikers work on their image with Toy Runs, and Vet Runs etc. It's about image and PR.
 
Don't dodge the question: Are the actions of the OC Rifle People in Texas helping or hurting the OC Movement specifically, and giving the 2A a positive image among the indifferent and less committed public, you know, the one's we are trying to cultivate and win hearts and minds?
I did not dodge the question - you asked a strawman question that I still answered as best I could.

1. "OC movement" is irrelevant to me, I don't know or care if it hurts it, that's like asking me if I think break-dancing was bad for street performers. Don't know, don't care ... moot.

2. What I care about is its impact to 2A and to that my answer is that in the long term, it is a good thing.

It is good because such flamboyant displays will encourage others to stop trying to hide and avoid the issue of people seeing firearms in their ordinary course of the day. It may also force more extreme abuse of the law by the opposition which will be easier to challenge. More generally, society needs to get back to a more rational view of firearms that would and should view carrying a rifle in Target is "odd", but not terrifying or worth anything more of note than seeing someone with 3 foot high purple spiked hair.

It is good because it is the opposite of bad - hiding does not work.

It is good because it will force the opposition to expose the truth behind why they are against this - irrational fear.

Is that clear enough?
 
Mark, the reality that [most] people have zero fear of a uniformed officer carrying a gun, yet wet their pants and call in panicked "man with a gun" 911 calls at the mere sight of a HOLSTERED firearm that result in assassinations of innocent and compliant people from the misunderstanding of the context of the situation is my concern.

We need context back into the discussion or more good people are going to be killed and injured by irrational fear and ignorance.

THAT is why it is a good thing.

Progressive main-stream values NEED to be challenged because they are tearing apart our society and people are losing their lives because of this.
 
p.s.:
can we put "hearts and minds" to bed yet? We've lost at least 3 wars on that premise so far despite winning all the battles.

Yeah, there is nuance there that isn't 100% wrong in fighting bigotry to defy the negative stereotypes, but ultimately, time, reversal of ignorance and perhaps most importantly, the removal of state sponsorship and protection for bigoted behavior is what stops it.

If you allow yourself to be judged by a bigoted standard, you are accepting it. It is they who need to change.
 
p.p.s
Shooting of kids with toy guns is another reason this is a good thing.

The complete lack of expectation that officers need to establish context or that their context may be invalid when based on the dispatch statement leading to children being shot is part of this irrational fear.

It is a statement by the shooting officer that he is seeing a zebra when he heard horse hooves.

I AM NOT saying the shoot is de facto not justified. On a "reasonable person" standard, I wasn't there, so I accept that he may have been "reasonably in fear for his life" without evidence to the contrary.

What I am saying is that progressive twisting of society has made the typical person notably and objectively "unreasonable" in their understanding of the world around them.
 
you either think people should be allowed to open carry guns or you don't, I don't see how its so complicated
short and sweet, thank you.

You either support the right of others to offend you (without state sanction) or you are opposed to free speech.
 
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