Pistol tac reload - which do you use and why

[Sigtac]

This weekend Dave Harrington commented that the reload from slide lock was the most common in his experience

I agree that unless you're playing one of the practical shooting games, (where you can plan ahead for reloads and the like), people, under the stress of a lethal encounter will most likely shoot until the gun stops shooting and then realize it's time to reload.( Examine some actual shooting footage or try some up close and violent force on force training.)

In a real "Critical dynamic incident" to steal a phrase, you won't necessarly know how many attackers there are, where all of them may be, when is it safe to get out of there and just exactly what is happening as it happens. Lots of sensory overload, and the idea of a lull in the action seems remote at best.

I've shot the original Federal Air Marshal qualification course and passed. It has an IPSC type speed reload on one of the stages and I can't for the life of me find a practical or prudent use for this in a LEO qualification course. YMMV

[law dawg]

I agree that unless you're playing one of the practical shooting games, (where you can plan ahead for reloads and the like), people, under the stress of a lethal encounter will most likely shoot until the gun stops shooting and then realize it's time to reload.( Examine some actual shooting footage or try some up close and violent force on force training.)

In a real "Critical dynamic incident" to steal a phrase, you won't necessarly know how many attackers there are, where all of them may be, when is it safe to get out of there and just exactly what is happening as it happens. Lots of sensory overload, and the idea of a lull in the action seems remote at best.

I've shot the original Federal Air Marshal qualification course and passed. It has an IPSC type speed reload on one of the stages and I can't for the life of me find a practical or prudent use for this in a LEO qualification course. YMMV

If memory serves there's only two reloads on the TPC - an emergency and a tactical. Which one is impractical in your opinion?

[Gonzo]

If memory serves there's only two reloads on the TPC - an emergency and a tactical. Which one is impractical in your opinion?

The one that gets you killed.

[ipscdrl]

Somewhat dated but still valid;

"Rapid Reloading

The average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed confrontation was between two and three rounds. The two to three rounds per incident remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also substantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6 rounds per encounter were discharged.

The necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not a factor in any of the cases examined.

In close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as necessary to continue the action.

In 6% of the total cases the officer reported reloading. These involved cases of pursuit, barricaded persons, and other incidents where the action was prolonged and the distance exceeded the 25 foot death zone."

I think it prudent to concentrate training where it is most likely to make a difference, shot placement.

[soloman02]

Somewhat dated but still valid;

"Rapid Reloading

The average number of shots fired by individual officers in an armed confrontation was between two and three rounds. The two to three rounds per incident remained constant over the years covered by the report. It also substantiates an earlier study by the L.A.P.D. (1967) which found that 2.6 rounds per encounter were discharged.

The necessity for rapid reloading to prevent death or serious injury was not a factor in any of the cases examined.

In close range encounters, under 15 feet, it was never reported as necessary to continue the action.

In 6% of the total cases the officer reported reloading. These involved cases of pursuit, barricaded persons, and other incidents where the action was prolonged and the distance exceeded the 25 foot death zone."

I think it prudent to concentrate training where it is most likely to make a difference, shot placement.

My NRA PPiTH instructors could not find a single instance of a civilian needing to reload in a self defense encounter.

That said, those statistics are all well and good, but I do not want to be the poor bugger who is the first one to have to reload during a firefight and have no training on how to reload under stress while the adrenaline is pumping.

Many police officers will never be in a firefight that requires them to reload, yet they still practice for it just in case it happens.

Also, in 1967, most police departments across the US were still using wheel guns. It is more time consuming to empty a 6 round cylinder on a double action revolver than it is to empty a magazine on a DA/SA or SAO semi-auto. You can even try that out with yourself and a buddy to time how long it take to empty a revolver vs a semi-auto.

[GSG]

I think an option that bears consideration is to just do an emergency reload and if time permits pick up the partially full magazine and put it in a pocket. If time doesn't permit, it's already gone and not a worry.

Speaking of IDPA, I got a procedural in two different stages of the Indiana IDPA championship (yesterday) for the same reason: commencing a reload of an empty pistol while in moving to cover. IDPA rules require that you move to cover with an empty gun before initiaing a reload. I simply cannot wrap my head around that concept and instinctively start my reload the moment I realize the pistol is empty (slide lock or revolver clicks) regardless of where I am. If moving to cover is necessary, I move, but I move while reloading.

+1 to both points. Absent good cover, while moving is probably the best time to reload an empty gun in a gunfight, unless you plan to stand still while they're shooting back.

Be sure to practice this beacuse it happens all the time............

I saw a dashboard camera recording of a cop who did just that in a gunfight. He and another cop were going to move forward to assist a wounded, unarmed fellow officer who was still taking fire, so he topped off his pistol with a fresh mag before pressing the attack. I've also seen footage of cops doing this while chasing fleeing suspects in a running gun battle, where they had to reload while driving their car.

Also, the well documented Peter Soulis incident:

Soulis' gun wasn't empty yet, but he knew better than to take the offensive without reloading. As he ejected the partially empty magazine and slapped in a fresh one...

I also personally spoke to a cop who had a nearly identical shooting to the Peter Soulis incident in the past couple of years who was forced to do the same thing.

Although most of the above that I've referenced are LEO shootings, there's one I'm listing at the bottom of my post that's civilian.

It's also doesn't take a huge stretch of the imagination to consider a scenario where an active shooter in a school, mall or other public place might get an LTC holder pinned down in a position where such a reload would be a viable option.

Gunfights can be quite fluid, prepare accordingly.

I think it prudent to concentrate training where it is most likely to make a difference, shot placement.

I agree that placement is very important, but there are many more well documented cases of goal-oriented indiiduals who were fatally wounded but were not out of the fight. In most cases people will drop after 2-3 rounds, but it's important to train for the moments when they don't.

My NRA PPiTH instructors could not find a single instance of a civilian needing to reload in a self defense encounter.

I can't post a link due to a firewall at work, but Google the term "Harry Beckwith's Guns in Alachua County, Florida" or "The Beckwith Incident," it's mentioned in the Ayoob Files. It's a gunstore owner who had to reload during a gunfight, more than once.

[GSG]

Also, after re-reading my post I'd like to clarify that I'm trying to be informative and helpful with the above post, not unkind, I know tone can be hard to convey on forums at times.

[Sigtac]

If memory serves there's only two reloads on the TPC - an emergency and a tactical. Which one is impractical in your opinion?

Sorry, I was away from this thread for a while. I know some will disagree and I have read here some of that disagreement but the reload I thought was impractical was the reload which requires you to drop a partially depleated mag to the ground, with the slide in battery and then insert a fresh mag.

I agree that it's the fastest way to reload, but I believe it would be used limitedly in the vast majority of real world shootings.

[law dawg]

Sorry, I was away from this thread for a while. I know some will disagree and I have read here some of that disagreement but the reload I thought was impractical was the reload which requires you to drop a partially depleated mag to the ground, with the slide in battery and then insert a fresh mag.

I agree that it's the fastest way to reload, but I believe it would be used limitedly in the vast majority of real world shootings.

That reload is mimicking, say, being in a gunfight, having a lull in the action and reloading with a full mag, but while reloading the incident resumes and you have to do it quickly.

In simms training I've done a tactical reload many times - putting a new, full mag and replacing the depleted one. I've not had in happen in either of my real life shootings. It's just a good idea to top off when you can, if it's safe and you have the time. Usually we try to catch the mag and put it on our person. In the TPC, again, it's as if you've been caught in mid-reload or something similar. Just speed added to up the stress level.

[ScottS]

The "tacticool" terms can be useful at times, ensuring that we are on the same page.


You may need those extra cartridges. As an NRA instructor certified to teach Personal Protection in the Home, I suggest that you stow that partial magazine in your pocket, rather than discard it at your feet.

Much more applicable to, say, an 8-shot 1911 than an 18-shot XD9 or a 15-shot P228.

IMO, if you've already fired off some number of rounds, and then reload with 15 or 18 more rounds, and you find you needed the additional rounds in the mag you discarded, you are, as they say, at the end of a long line of bad decisions.

I find it hard to find an applicable scenario outside Baghdad or the Zombie Apocalypse.