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Thread: LEOSA Question

  1. #1

    Default LEOSA Question

    So, Ive been debating with other Officers at work. Does LEOSA restrict the type of firearm you can carry off duty? Some Officers say your only allowed to carry your duty weapon, others say it can be your personal weapon. I can not find anything referencing this in the law. As I read it, you can carry anything described as a firearm in the context of the law. Any help? Thanks.

  2. #2

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    Neither interpretation is really correct.

    Having not read the part about active officers lately, I'll defer on that part.

    The law requires that retired officers qualify with the same type of firearm that they will carry (this part I read last week). So a qualification with a revolver only allows them to carry any revolver. Qualification with a semi-auto allows them to carry any semi-auto. The retiree could qualify with a .38Spl, 10" bbl, target sights and trigger and then carry a 2.5" S&W 500 with EC's nuclear hand-loads (700gr bullets . . . I'm not kidding) under LEOSA.

    A modification to LEOSA (major) was signed into law by the Big O on October 12, 2010. I just sent a copy of that new law to Jason Guida (he was unaware of the law change) and we'll have to see how/when/if MA accommodates those changes.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by joe1231913 View Post
    So, Ive been debating with other Officers at work. Does LEOSA restrict the type of firearm you can carry off duty? Some Officers say your only allowed to carry your duty weapon, others say it can be your personal weapon. I can not find anything referencing this in the law. As I read it, you can carry anything described as a firearm in the context of the law. Any help? Thanks.
    No, LEOSA does not restrict what you can carry as an active duty LEO except:
    ‘‘(e) As used in this section, the term ‘firearm’ does not include—
    ‘‘(1) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the
    National Firearms Act);
    ‘‘(2) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this
    title); and
    ‘‘(3) any destructive device (as defined in section 921 of
    this title).’’.
    Also, the new changes to the law free us from ammunition restrictions such as the "no hollowpoint" law in NJ.

    For retired LEOs they must have qualified with the type of firearm they're carrying:
    ‘‘(B) a certification issued by the State in which the individual
    resides that indicates that the individual has, not less
    recently than one year before the date the individual is carrying
    the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the
    State to meet the standards established by the State for
    training and qualification for active law enforcement officers
    to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm
    .
    ‘‘(e) As used in this section, the term ‘firearm’ does not include—
    ‘‘(1) any machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the
    National Firearms Act);
    ‘‘(2) any firearm silencer (as defined in section 921 of this
    title); and
    ‘‘(3) a destructive device (as defined in section 921 of this
    title).’’.
    I always qualify with my back up and off duty guns in addition to my duty piece so that, God forbid, anything should happen there's a record of me being qualified with the gun I'm carrying. Of course, there are times when I carry something other than those three particular guns but because my BUG is a revolver and the others autos, I figure I can cite the "firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm" clause if there is any question about my competency with the gun in question.
    Last edited by WC145; 11-07-2010 at 07:14 AM.

  4. #4

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    Thanks for the input guys. Long story short, a fellow Officer (active sworn) I work with went to get his Class A LTC from.....well, town will remain nameless for now, and they restricted him to target and hunting. He questioned the restriction, citing LEOSA. The licensing Officer stated he could only carry his duty firearm under LEOSA. This sparked the debate in my department. I didnt see anything governing active officers besides no machineguns, silencers etc. I guess its just an example of one person being misinformed snowballing into others getting it wrong too. Thanks.

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    The problem with LEOSA is that so many officers are ignorant about what it actually allows and restricts. I am not a lawyer, but from what I have been taught, an active police officer can carry whatever he wants (except those stated above) as long as he has qualified with his duty weapon.

    Too many guys are looking too hard at this law in order to basically screw over other officers. Here is how it SHOULD go according to LEOSA:
    1. An officer sees that you are carrying concealed. Maybe your shirt rode up, whatever.
    2. He challenges you on it.
    3. You produce your department ID
    4. He says "have a nice day sir."
    5. For whatever reason, if the officer has doubts about the validity of your ID, he can of course call and confirm your employment. Then go back to #4

    Notice that there was no questions about whether or not XYZ police department were covered under LEOSA, or if he was a full or part time officer. No questions about the capacity of the magazines, or if they were hydro shock. Anything above and beyond the above posted 5 steps lets you know that you are dealing with a dickhead that is trying to jam you up.
    Last edited by In God We Trust; 12-02-2010 at 09:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by In God We Trust View Post
    I am not a lawyer, but from what I have been taught, an active police officer can carry whatever he wants (except those stated above) as long as he has qualified with his duty weapon.
    If you read the text of the law (which is really pretty short and simple) it doesn't say anything about what firearm you have to qualify with. In fact it says very little about firearms at all. The law is about the act of carrying, not what you're carrying (aside from what I posted above). Obviously when it was written it was understood that there are as many qualification policies as there are agencies and was made purposefully vague in order to allow for those policy variations. -

    ‘‘(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;

    ‘‘(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency
    which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use
    of a firearm;

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    Quote Originally Posted by joe1231913 View Post
    So, Ive been debating with other Officers at work. Does LEOSA restrict the type of firearm you can carry off duty?
    No, not if you're active. Agency policy may restrict it though. Some require you to carry your duty weapon, others issue you a handgun safe and require you to lockup the duty weapon as soon as you get home from work and not use it outside of work hours, others let you carry anything, etc. It's different everywhere. But there's PD's in Mass. who are covered under LEOSA, armed on duty, etc. who's department requires them to unload and lock up the gun at the station at the end of every shift, and there's LEOSA compliant correctional facilities where they're only allowed to check out guns for specific purposes like prisoner transport.

    Read your agency policy very carefully. You won't get in legal trouble if you violate it, but you may lose your job for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by joe1231913 View Post
    they restricted him to target and hunting. He questioned the restriction, citing LEOSA.
    He's not the first cop in Mass. who's in that boat. That could make a very interesting test case if they tried to jam him up for off duty carry though.

    Quote Originally Posted by In God We Trust View Post
    Anything above and beyond the above posted 5 steps lets you know that you are dealing with a dickhead that is trying to jam you up.
    Which is why if at all possible you should backup LEOSA coverage with a state issued permit if at all possible, and keep a low profile. I posted in another thread recently about a guy who was covered by LEOSA getting charged in court for carrying in Mass., it does happen.

  8. #8

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    GSG,

    Thanks for the advice.

    Just to clarify............I am a Federal LEO, my co-worker (also a Fed. LEO) applied for a class A through a North Shore City, and they restricted him, not his employing agency. We lock up our guns at the end of shift and dont take them home, thats why he was worried. He was under the impression from the city Licensing Officer that LEOSA only covered his duty weapon, thus rendering LEOSA useless to him since we leave our guns at work. Ive heard horror stories about LEOSA, and how people can get jammed up because an arresting Officer doesnt fully comprehend the law. As for me, I carry a folded copy in my wallet behind my badge, and have an unrestricted class A. But then again...............I live in a town that gives LEO's unrestricted CCW's. Thanks again guys, good insight.

  9. #9

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    Joe,

    MCOPA, et al were 100% AGAINST LEOSA. As a result they dragged their feet for 4 years post-passage before implementing CMRs to implement it. The draft CMRs would have disenfranchised anyone not a MA municipal or MSP retiree. Myself and a few others testified against those CMRs and as a result I see that they made some significant changes for the better.

    As of now, the MA CMRs do NOT comply with the current status of the law (new changes signed into law in October) and who knows how long before MA will address them.

    For current active LEOs, it's a different ballgame. But not everyone is issued a proper ID, language on the ID may not be clearly LEOSA compliant, qualifications by department may not comply (frequency, etc.).

    In any case, LEOs were NOT informed about LEOSA I thru proper channels, intentionally. No idea when/if they will be informed of LEOSA II.
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    GSG,

    Thanks for the advice.

    Just to clarify............I am a Federal LEO, my co-worker (also a Fed. LEO) applied for a class A through a North Shore City, and they restricted him, not his employing agency. We lock up our guns at the end of shift and dont take them home, thats why he was worried. He was under the impression from the city Licensing Officer that LEOSA only covered his duty weapon, thus rendering LEOSA useless to him since we leave our guns at work. Ive heard horror stories about LEOSA, and how people can get jammed up because an arresting Officer doesnt fully comprehend the law. As for me, I carry a folded copy in my wallet behind my badge, and have an unrestricted class A. But then again...............I live in a town that gives LEO's unrestricted CCW's. Thanks again guys, good insight.
    I have a buddy that works for a federal agency that was specifically named in the October ammendment. They also turn on their duty weapons at the end of shift. His chain of command still maintains that they are NOT covered even though Obama says they are. They of course all recognize the fact that your boss's opinion of federal law does not change facts, but they are still worried about administrative fallout if something happens. Nobody wants to be the test case.

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