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Derek33
04-20-2010, 06:28 PM
I've been shooting my MP 15-22 lately and so far I love it.

I have added an ACOG knock off sight too it and zero'd it in today. When I had the barrel on a sandbag I had no problem shooting groups within a 3" diameter. When I try to shoot the rifle standing (at the same distance) my groupings are the the same but lower.

The 3" circle turns into a vertical oval that is probably 3" wide by 5" tall. All of which are directly lower then the bulls eye by a couple of inches.

Do you guys have a guess of something I might be doing wrong while standing? I don't notice my cross hairs dropping at all while shooting, either.

Thanks,

Derek

crak
04-20-2010, 06:54 PM
What distance? I'll make a guess of 25 yards from the standing. Prone groups should be ~1inch at 25 yards, sandbag groups should be much less, and standing's usually much worse. So it's your standing that sounds about normal and your prone/bag that needs work. If I'm guessing wrong and you did this at 100 yards, nice work.

Depending on how you shoot, a bag zero is always going to be different from your position zero. The bag takes a lot of "you" out of the equation and standing is the position that puts the most of you back in.

That said, a big change of zero for different position usually means you're looking down the sights differently. Check consistent cheek weld. If that's not it, another likely problem that would cause a vertical oval is not pausing breath in the same place for each shot. If that's not it, depending how long you stood there holding the rifle in the air, muscles get tired and start to droop. Relax and let the rifle down after every 2-3 shots. Finally, some people have a tendency to "buck" and push their shoulder into the rifle that would cause this, but I doubt it for the .22. You can find out by doing some ball and dummy and observing what you do on the round that goes "click" instead of "bang."

There are a lot of ways to shoot standing but for your first time try a neutral stance, holding the rifle across your body, with your trigger elbow up high, your support elbow directly under the rifle, and bring the rifle up to your head instead of your head down to the rifle. Look up how to use a sling for support.

If you want more of this kind of stuff for prone, sitting, and standing, check out Appleseed (http://appleseedinfo.org).

Derek33
04-20-2010, 07:06 PM
Your suggestion about looking through the scope is intriguing.

When I'm sitting down and using a sand bag i am very relaxed and not concerned about my form.
Its not till I stand when I am more concerned about form. Maybe my form is causing my eyes to look
through my sites at a different angle. I'll have to focus on that next time.

For the record distance is about 55 yards and I'm still new to rifles.

I understand how my groupings are larger while standing, I'm ok with that. Just the fact the
movement of the entire group got me worried.

lupis42
04-20-2010, 07:21 PM
...the movement of the entire group got me worried.

What type of knock-off is it? Most of the cheap ones that I've seen have significant changes in zero depending on how you look through them.

Derek33
04-20-2010, 07:33 PM
Its a bushnell tactical elite.

http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Tactical-Elite-Green-Riflescope/dp/B0019SS8CE/ref=pd_ys_iyr_img

I went back and forth between sand bags and standing so I'm pretty sure the scope still has its zero.

wolf223
04-20-2010, 07:55 PM
Its a bushnell tactical elite.

http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Tactical-Elite-Green-Riflescope/dp/B0019SS8CE/ref=pd_ys_iyr_img

I went back and forth between sand bags and standing so I'm pretty sure the scope still has its zero.

it wouldn't really matter with a red-dot anyway. is this any scope different?

nice scope btw. i'm sold on getting one for M&P 15-22... [smile]

edit: i agree with what you said.. are you sure that you aren't flinching or pulling? i think crak nailed it.

i practice A LOT from the bench for fundamentals. but then it is fun to see how tight i can group off hand, prone unsupported / supported as well. but for the best grouping, i'd say it's whatever supported position is more comfortable for you... IMO

Derek33
04-20-2010, 07:58 PM
nice scope btw. i'm sold on getting one for M&P 15-22... [smile]

Thank you. I ended up needing a small riser to get the scope a little higher off the rifle's rail. When
I had it on the rifle without the riser I had to cock my neck and tilt my head way too much.

lupis42
04-20-2010, 08:07 PM
Its a bushnell tactical elite.

http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Tactical-Elite-Green-Riflescope/dp/B0019SS8CE/ref=pd_ys_iyr_img

I went back and forth between sand bags and standing so I'm pretty sure the scope still has its zero.

Right, but is your eye in the same exact place behind the scope when you're standing that it was when you shot from the sandbag?

I had a cheap red dot (briefly) that had a significant difference in POA depending on whether I looked through it from directly behind or slightly higher and further back.


ETA: Not familiar with this type of scope, it doesn't seem that bad.

Derek33
04-20-2010, 11:10 PM
Right, but is your eye in the same exact place behind the scope when you're standing that it was when you shot from the sandbag?



I can't confirm that. I didn't really focus on this while I was shooting so there is a possibility my point of focus has changed between stances.

Next time I go shooting I'll focus on keeping my head in the same position.

I picked my rifle up and aimed it at a certain point on my wall. I got the cross hairs to move a little bit just by turning my head. That small movement on a wall roughly ten feet away may be my 2-3" at 50-60 yards or so.

wolf223
04-20-2010, 11:17 PM
Derek33

it don't matter with a red dot scope though. i.e. aim point, EOTECH ect... once it's zero'd, the bullet will hit POA / POI of the dot, regardless of your position. -just throwing that in.

i'll have to check on the bushnell trophy to verify, but it's pretty much the point of a red dot scope. fast acquisition of your target.

for example: i use an aimpoint and my carbine has a fixed front sight. i have a back up iron folding sight on the rear (rear BUIS). when the rear sight is folded down, the dot hovers above the front sight post by "x" amount of distance.

when i flip up the rear sight and look through it, the dot aligns with the front / rear sight, however it's "x" amount of distance lower (aka lower 1/3 co-witness). but the POA / POI for the red dot does NOT change....

Supermoto
04-21-2010, 09:38 AM
Derek33

it don't matter with a red dot scope though. i.e. aim point, EOTECH ect... once it's zero'd, the bullet will hit POA / POI of the dot, regardless of your position. -just throwing that in.



Some red dots have significant parallax error. most have some error but usually not enough to effect performance, but the OP issue is more likely form related

edmorseiii
04-21-2010, 10:02 AM
If you want more of this kind of stuff for prone, sitting, and standing, check out Appleseed. [/URL].

This, get yourself to an appleseed shoot, and you will be shooting one ragged hole at 25 meters with that rifle.

http://www.appleseedinfo.org There is a lot of chatter about appleseed in the training sub forum on these boards.

Twigg
04-21-2010, 11:48 AM
My responses in RED.


I've been shooting my MP 15-22 lately and so far I love it.

I have added an ACOG knock off sight too it and zero'd it in today. When I had the barrel on a sandbag I had no problem shooting groups within a 3" diameter. When I try to shoot the rifle standing (at the same distance) my groupings are the the same but lower.

Different positions yield different zero's. zero your rifle for the position you will be using most often. Know, record and use the amount of holdover you'll need for other positions.
If you're not keeping a range log, start.

The 3" circle turns into a vertical oval that is probably 3" wide by 5" tall. All of which are directly lower then the bulls eye by a couple of inches.

Do you guys have a guess of something I might be doing wrong while standing?
Could be a slipping sling, could be breathing.

I don't notice my cross hairs dropping at all while shooting, either.

You probably won't notice because it doesn't take much movement to throw off one shot or an entire group.

Thanks,

Derek

I'd strongly suggest you get to an Appleseed. You are using a sling, aren't you ?

As for the "Breathing" comment I recently had this explained to me in a different manner than what was taught to me and this is much better;

Letting half your breath out or inhaling half way isn't what you want to do. Your diaphragm isn't completely at rest at half lung capacity. The NRP is letting your breath out normally between inhales. You have a few seconds to deliver before your eyesight suffers from the lack of oxygen. If you can't break the shot you repeat the process.

In Appleseed we teach the six steps of taking the shot;
1. Align the sights.
2. Bring the sights onto the target.
3. Resparitory pause.
4a. Focus your eye on the front sight / crosshairs / dot.
4b. Focus your mind on keeping the sihgts on target.
5. SQEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEze the trigger.
6. Follow through, hold that trigger back, take a mental "snapshot" and call the shot.

Derek33
04-21-2010, 12:39 PM
I will definitely do my best to get to an appleseed. Sounds very fun.

I currently don't have a sling for my rifle. How is the sling used during shooting?

edmorseiii
04-21-2010, 12:43 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gAso3l7UCU

There is an Appleseed next month, in Leyden MA May 22-23. You will learn everything you are trying to accomplish, and earn a sweet patch at the same time.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php/97942-Leyden-MA-Appleseed-5-22-23-and-9-25-26

Twigg
04-21-2010, 06:44 PM
I currently don't have a sling for my rifle. How is the sling used during shooting?

To support the rifle in all shooting positions. Don't bother with any of the fancy one or three point types, we'll show you how to correctly use the standard USGI issue slings.