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matt
12-18-2005, 09:42 PM
OK, so you go out and buy that MA compliant pistol with a 145lb trigger pull. Is it legal/advisable to have it modified, substitute springs, etc to reduce the trigger pull?

Matt

C-pher
12-18-2005, 09:45 PM
I hope so, I've done it to many of mine...

But from what I've heard, once you own it, I believe that you can do what you want to customize it as long as you don't turn it full auto.

Scrivener
12-18-2005, 10:19 PM
The regulations affect guns that can be sold by Mass dealers; NOT what the purchaser does to them.

So long as you stop short of making the sear so unstable as to render the gun unsafe and/or subject to going "full auto," improve away.

Len-2A Training
12-18-2005, 10:43 PM
C-pher is right.

The restriction is on the gun as sold new to meet MA ridiculous requirements. NO restrictions exist on what the owner (or what a gunsmith) can do legally to trigger pull.

As a clue, no LEO is going to carry a duty gun in MA with the horrendous trigger pull required for civilian EOPS/AG approval.

My suggestion for a carry gun is to not reduce trigger pull below that used by LE. That way if you ever have to defend your actions in court (if G_d forbid you ever had to use it to defend yourself), you'd be on solid ground to point out that what you have is the same as what LE carries.

JonJ
12-18-2005, 10:47 PM
C-pher is right.

The restriction is on the gun as sold new to meet MA ridiculous requirements. NO restrictions exist on what the owner (or what a gunsmith) can do legally to trigger pull.

As a clue, no LEO is going to carry a duty gun in MA with the horrendous trigger pull required for civilian EOPS/AG approval.

My suggestion for a carry gun is to not reduce trigger pull below that used by LE. That way if you ever have to defend your actions in court (if G_d forbid you ever had to use it to defend yourself), you'd be on solid ground to point out that what you have is the same as what LE carries.But don't try that reasoning with a non compliant gun!

Len-2A Training
12-18-2005, 10:57 PM
C-pher is right.

The restriction is on the gun as sold new to meet MA ridiculous requirements. NO restrictions exist on what the owner (or what a gunsmith) can do legally to trigger pull.

As a clue, no LEO is going to carry a duty gun in MA with the horrendous trigger pull required for civilian EOPS/AG approval.

My suggestion for a carry gun is to not reduce trigger pull below that used by LE. That way if you ever have to defend your actions in court (if G_d forbid you ever had to use it to defend yourself), you'd be on solid ground to point out that what you have is the same as what LE carries.But don't try that reasoning with a non compliant gun!

Huh?

Most LE guns being carried are not MA compliant (nor should they be!).

matt
12-19-2005, 08:24 AM
My suggestion for a carry gun is to not reduce trigger pull below that used by LE.

Is there a standard for this?

Matt

Len-2A Training
12-19-2005, 08:37 AM
My suggestion for a carry gun is to not reduce trigger pull below that used by LE.

Is there a standard for this?

Matt

Yes, it is called the "reasonable person" standard used in court to determine if what you did is the same or lesser than what a "reasonable person" would do". That's what they use to convince a jury that you used excessive force in your self-defense case and should spend life in jail for it . . . or not!

It's researchable on the Web . . . try Google on the term if you want lots of info.

USMA-82
12-19-2005, 01:37 PM
Unfortunately, there may be some problems with modifications if you do find yourself in a defensive shooting.

Many of the gun rag writers, primarily Mas Ayoob, have commented on the prosecutors' inclination to go after defendents with "altered" firearms -especially in cases where the trigger (a so-called safety feature) has been lightened.

Anything and everything that can be used against you in court, will be. If a jury can be convinced that you were not being "prudent" and/or made modifications to your gun that made it "more deadly" - as ridiculous as that may sound - you could find yourself heading for some time behind bars.

Modifications on competition or target guns is one thing, but you may want to reconsider changing anything on a carry gun. If the stock gun does not meet your needs/requirements, find one that does.

KK

TonyD
12-19-2005, 01:51 PM
Ken - We have heard, and considered this possiblity for many, many years. However, I have never heard of, nor heard of anyone else that has heard any evidence of this ever being a factor in any court case. I'm curious if you or our resident attorney's have.

I think LenS made a good point about being consitent with local LEO's. Aside from making a 'hair' trigger, or something unsafe, I think the justification of force is the bigger issue. I also believe a case could be made about a trigger being so heavy that it present a safety issue causing such a lack of controlled accuracy as to unnecessarily put bystanders in danger.

Thoughts?

Chris
12-19-2005, 03:10 PM
oooh,that evil "Hair Trigger".

For a gun that is used mainly for target, an argument that a light trigger is more accurate is not a hard one to make. A defensive shooting in the house with such a gun would not likely be an issue - especailly if you can show that you backed up to a 'safe room' before shooting.

On the street where the justification is iffy, it might come up.

The fact is, circumstances play a more serious role than equipment. Only if the gray areas are larger than usual will the equipment be looked at. Get your training, find the gun that works best for you, and then get MORE training.

If a lighter trigger allows you to shoot more accurately and with better control, then by all means, make the gun fit you better. If you are doing it just 'cause then you may find it a liability.

matt
12-19-2005, 09:09 PM
My suggestion for a carry gun is to not reduce trigger pull below that used by LE.

Is there a standard for this?

Matt

Yes, it is called the "reasonable person" standard used in court to determine if what you did is the same or lesser than what a "reasonable person" would do". That's what they use to convince a jury that you used excessive force in your self-defense case and should spend life in jail for it . . . or not!

It's researchable on the Web . . . try Google on the term if you want lots of info.

Uh... actually, I meant for the trigger pull. Any thoughts?

Len-2A Training
12-19-2005, 10:40 PM
Matt,

My answer was related to changing the trigger pull!

It is also relevant to any other mods made to a carry gun, however.

TonyD
12-20-2005, 09:51 AM
Matt,

My answer was related to changing the trigger pull!

It is also relevant to any other mods made to a carry gun, however.

Len - I think he still wants to know a ballpark poundage for LEO triggers.

Len-2A Training
12-20-2005, 11:05 AM
Tony,

I wouldn't even try that . . .

Different guns are built with different trigger pulls, even LE variations.

I don't think "one size fits all"!

If the OP tells us exactly what gun, then we can give a definitive answer, otherwise we can only talk in generalities.

TonyD
12-20-2005, 11:12 AM
Len - What does Mass. stipulate for trigger pull on a new gun?

I guess one safe answer would be to have a particular firearm returned to the trigger configuration it uses for the other 49 States. Then, have it tuned to be smooth and crisp, not necessarilly lighter.

Len-2A Training
12-20-2005, 12:01 PM
It is 10# trigger pull. Here it is in the AG's Regs as follows:


* Does the handgun have built-in childproofing protection (Section 16.05(2))? If you are unsure whether the handgun meets the Attorney General's childproofing requirements, you can ask the manufacturer. A handgun will meet these childproofing requirements if it contains a mechanism that effectively precludes an average five year-old child from operating the handgun when it is ready to fire, including but not limited to: a trigger resistance of at least a ten-pound pull; a firing mechanism that makes it so that an average five year-old child's hands are too small to operate the handgun; a design where the handgun requires a series of multiple motions in order to fire the handgun; and/or a hammer deactivation device.

matt
12-20-2005, 09:19 PM
Yeah, I was looking for the # at which LEO might set the trigger to.

I don't have a specific model in mind. I was just thinking that there would be some range that is considered "reasonable", but if it is too specific to model, that's fine.

Thanks for all the feedback.

Matt

Len-2A Training
12-20-2005, 10:08 PM
Matt,

It appears that all non-MA Glocks are set at 5.5#.

H&K USP LE guns are set at 20N (SA) and 51N (DA). Sorry, I don't have conversion info handy.

http://www.heckler-koch.de/core.php?dat=Y29tcG9uZW50PWFydGljbGVzJmFjdGlvbj1za G93JnhJRD1wYXJhZ3JhcGhCeUlEQW5kUGFyZW50SUQmYXJ0aWN sZUlEPTM4MCZwcGFyZW50SUQ9Mzc5JmNhdElEPTEzMDQmbGFuZ 0lEPTUmcGFyZW50SUQ9NzI0Jm5hdmlnYXRpb25JRD03MjUmdXN lRmxhc2g9

I looked on S&W and SigArms LE websites and don't find trigger pull data on either website.

That's how you are going to have to get your info.

matt
12-21-2005, 08:54 PM
20N=4.5lbs
50N=~11lbs

Thanks Len.

So setting near the non-Mass trigger pull would be reasonable. That makes sense.

Thanks,
Matt

sal
12-23-2005, 01:23 PM
I had to call S&W and while I had them on the phone I asked them what the their trigger pull for leo firearms was and they said 6.5#.
Also for those who are interested the M&P will only be available to L.E. in MA.