Tactical Lights on Home-defense weapons

[pbsesq]

I'm wondering about the real usefulness of adding a tac. light to my compact house pistol(s). What d'y'all think ... worth it or not???

What about a light on a Hallway Howitzer ... mine is the Rem. 870 Magnum Synthetic.

Maybe the light helps the BG see you?! Maybe your shotgun blast in the night blinds the BG (and stops him!).

They're expensive so I'd really like to hear from those who have actually installed a rail mounted light ( or pistol butt-mounted for that matter).

Also, what about a trigger guard mounted light on the older rail-less Glocks?

Thanks.

[codenamepaul]

The only thing I hang on any of my guns are sights. Slings on the long guns.

I do own a flashlight or two tho'

[coastie]

I feel a light of some sort is a must. You have to be able to positively ID your target as a threat. Heaven forbid you shoot a family member who is trying to sneak in after hours. Lasers/ night sights etc. dont due this. I use an older Surefire that I hold in my hand. I would prefer a weapon mounted light but dont have a rail. As for the shotgun I will be mounting one in the future but currently use the handheld with that also. Sigarms Academy offers a low light shooting class that teaches you how to use a flashlight and shoot in the dark. It is a fantastic class and I feel it is a must for anyone who is serious about self defense. Odds are you arent going to be using your weapon in broad daylight in a defensive situation.

[Rockrivr1]

I installed a MiniMag on my Mossberg 500A. It has a touch switch on the forearm and it's mounted very easily on the extended mag tube. It may not be as bright as a Surefire, but it throws enough light to illumiate a good sized room. I may or may not turn it on depending on the situation, but at least I have the choice.

[drgrant]

The problem with tac lights is that they generally require that you point a
loaded firearm around (and possibly at things which are non-targets) in order to be of any use. So, one must use them carefully. I don't think they're bad to have, but they're not really a good substitute for a separate
flashlight.

I say all this confessing that I actually do own one of the things, and I
bought it because it was at the right price. I think of it more as an SHTF
device than one for normal home defense. The guns I usually keep around for HD don't have tac lights, though.


-Mike

[Scrivener]

I have a xenon light built into the forend of my HD shotgun. If it's in the light, it's in my sights.

So, I know WHAT I'm hitting as well as where - the advantage of a LIGHT over a laser.

[TomH]

I've heard that it's a bad idea. The light basically gives an intruder a good target to shoot at if you haven't aquired him in your light yet. Same with lasers. It's best to have a light in your offhand and hold it out and up police style, then if someone shoots at the light at worst you'll get an arm or hand injury, as opposed to a headshot on you because you were looking down a tac light.

[Round Gun Shooter]

I really do not like the idea of a light on a firearm in the case you describe. In order to light up friend or foe, you have to point a loaded firearm at them. Not a good thing in all situations.

[Round Gun Shooter]

It's best to have a light in your offhand and hold it out and up police style,

FYI, that is an outdated FBI technique. There are several newer more reliable techniques that use modern lights.

A good light can be a formidable weapon in a dark room [wink]

[M1911]

The problem with tac lights is that they generally require that you point a loaded firearm around (and possibly at things which are non-targets) in order to be of any use.Surefires are bright enough that you can easily illuminate a room by bouncing the light off the floor, ceiling, or walls. So you can keep the gun pointed in a safe direction and still see what you need to see.

[FITH]

+ 1

[USMA-82]

+2 on bouncing the light off the floor. I can keep either my light-equipped pump shotgun or light-equipped pistol pointed at the low ready (45 degree angle to the floor) and still have PLENTY of light to identify what's out there.

I like the idea of not having to deal with a separate tool in the middle of the night, so I want the flashlight attached to the gun. As far as giving the intruder a target to shoot at, he's going to have that anyway. And if the guy is brazen enough to stick around after hearing you approach, he's got more than theft in mind. Blinding him, if just temporarily, might be the slight advantage you need to stop him before he stops you.

But backing up just a minute... if there are no other rooms to be concerned about (kids), it's probably better to stay behind the locked door of your bedroom and let the intruder KNOW verbally that you have a gun, and that you are calling 911. From both a tactical and legal point of view, better he comes to find you (where you're ready for him, and he is forced into the "fatal funnel" of your doorway) than the other way around.

If he then manages to slip out the front door with some of your stuff, so what? That's what home insurance is for. Material things can be replaced - lives can not.

My 2 cents..

[adweisbe]

FYI, that is an outdated FBI technique. There are several newer more reliable techniques that use modern lights.

A good light can be a formidable weapon in a dark room [wink]
What is a more modern technique? I tried a couple and stuck with putting the light by my head so it would track naturally. I couldn't get anything two handed to work reliably.

[matt]

But backing up just a minute... if there are no other rooms to be concerned about (kids), it's probably better to stay behind the locked door of your bedroom and let the intruder KNOW verbally that you have a gun, and that you are calling 911. From both a tactical and legal point of view, better he comes to find you (where you're ready for him, and he is forced into the "fatal funnel" of your doorway) than the other way around.

If he then manages to slip out the front door with some of your stuff, so what? That's what home insurance is for. Material things can be replaced - lives can not.

My 2 cents..

Amen to that!

Standing triumphantly over the intruder who is sprawled out under the 348" plasma screen tv he was carting away will not go down well... Let him have the "stuff".

[TomH]

Round gun: didn't know that. I was just told that in general the flashlight would give someone a place to aim at, and assuming you're aiming at them too that light is a target to your face. This is what an officer told me anyway, I wouldn't know!

-Tom

[matt]

FYI, that is an outdated FBI technique. There are several newer more reliable techniques that use modern lights.

A good light can be a formidable weapon in a dark room [wink]

Did that change primarily due to the availability of very bright but small lights? Just curious what drove the change. I can imagine that it is diffucult to use your "light" hand for support if it is holding a 4 D Cell Maglight.

[BoB13]

A 65 lumen pentagon or surefire light in the eyes is going to temporally blind the BG. Give you the edge you'll need to keep alive.

[Mr Weebles]

Y'know ... you could always turn the damned lights on.

[M1911]

What is a more modern technique? I tried a couple and stuck with putting the light by my head so it would track naturally. I couldn't get anything two handed to work reliably.Harries seems to work best for me (unless I'm at a left-hand barricade), but there's many techniques to choose from:
http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/pgrfnbr/557/sesent/00

[KMaurer]

While I've got a couple of good lights and train with my Surefire regularly, I really don't need one at home. Anybody who comes through my locked bedroom door at night has already identified himself adequately to generate a lethal response.

Ken

[Scrivener]

Y'know ... you could always turn the damned lights on.

Thus illuminating YOU very clearly - as well as the layout of the room. That's two good reasons NOT to.

No thanks.

[adweisbe]

Harries seems to work best for me (unless I'm at a left-hand barricade), but there's many techniques to choose from:
http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/pgrfnbr/557/sesent/00

Leave it to me when faced with several unfamiliar techniques to zero in on the latest and greatest. [smile]

Neck-Index Technique
One of the newest techniques to be developed, the Neck-Index Technique, is the culmination of much experimintation. It is a hands-apart technique in which the flashlight is held in an ice pick grip and the handgun is held in either the strong- or weak-hand. The first published description of this technique appeared in a June, 1994 magazine article by Brian Puckett and, since Americans love nothing more than to pigeonhole things, it was immediately dubbed the Puckett Technique. However, a version of this technique for use with SureFire's compact, powerful lithium-powered lights was taught by Ken Good and Dave Maynard of Combative Concepts about two years prior to the '94 article. Puckett and Good now use the term Neck Index Technique.

Employing the Neck Index requires that the light's reflector is held indexed against the jaw/neck juncture just below the ear, so that it moves in conjunction with user's head, yet blocks little peripheral vision. The thumb is placed on the momentary tailcap switch, if using a SureFire CombatLight, or a finger is positioned on the body-mounted switch, if using an old-style flashlight. For the older, large "police flashlights," the flashlight body is rested on the shoulder, indexed against the base of the neck. For compact, lithium-powered flashlights, the body of the flashlight, or the fist holding it, is indexed against the neck. The weapon is held in any position desired, out of contact with flashlight hand or arm.

An ancillary benefit of the Neck Index Technique is that it utilizes the same basic position as the common method of cops when they interview suspects - resting the light on the shoulder in order to deliver a fast strike if the suspect suddenly becomes aggressive. By employing a similar position, the Neck Index Technique allows an ergonomic, tactical and even psychological benefit. The Neck Index Technique breaks from the trend of hands-together techniques that have been universal since the Harries was first introduced. The goal of hands-together techniques is to steady the shooting hand and keep the flashlight beam aligned with the gun barrel. Good and Maynard's dynamic combat techniques did not require this, and anyone who has tested different techniques in a CQB environment - and not just on the range - will agree that the ability to take cover and shoot bilaterally from around corners more than offsets the putative drawback of the Neck Index's less stability than a hands-together technique.
I find it does not work well around barricades. The flashlight sometimes points at the barricade but it is easy and natural to correct.

[Mattitude]

Tactical lights are extremely bright and concentrated. In a dark room, the effect of a light in the face is magnified because the pupils are enlarged to gather the (much) lower light level. The light will almost always cause an immediate subconcious reaction to raise up an arm to block the light and causing temporary blindness. It's much more effective than it sounds. If you don't believe that a 3v or 6v 65-95 lumen bulb won't do that "damage", go in a dark room for a few minutes, then flash the light in your face just for 1 or 2 seconds. Turning on the lights does more harm than good because your night vision (from being in a dark room to begin with) will cause you to squint or even involuntary raise your arms because of the sudden drastic change in lighting.

[Round Gun Shooter]

Did that change primarily due to the availability of very bright but small lights? Just curious what drove the change. I can imagine that it is diffucult to use your "light" hand for support if it is holding a 4 D Cell Maglight.

I will answer several questions quoting this.

As stated in another post the Harries method is good, the Sure Fire method is good, the Rogers method is good. The old FBI technique gave the most target to the opponent. It was like HEY SHOOT HERE JUST UNDER THE LIGHT Wide open stance and enough light to give a target.

Primary purpose of a light is to identify the intruder. If you think bouncing a light off the floor will allow proper target identification, you will be very sorry when you try it for real.

Having searched buildings and wooded areas at night more than once, I realized early on there is no such thing as enough light. My main light now is a Surefire with LED head powered by 2 3volt Lithium cells.

Is it enough light?

No.

I wish I lived close enough to BlackBear 84 to try what he sells. That is better than what I have from what I see on this forum, but before I spent the cash I would want to check it out. (If you want to send a loaner, I will do a forum get together to test it [wink] )

I realized at a shooting competition that the LED light was better than the others due to the whiteness of the light. (Is whiteness a word??? is now)

The whiter the light the better you can identify the target.

Think back to the Shrewsbury Officer that was shot by the homeowner. Someone there (most likely all involved) needed better lights.

When you have done a building or area search for real you will realize what method works for you. You will also realize the best choice is call for K9

If you ever have the chance to take a light course offered by Ernest Langdon, take it no matter what the cost is. The man is good and gets the point across. He is entertaining too. He is one of the trainers that has been there. He did not learn by just taking courses or reading books.

Regards,

[M1911]

You will also realize the best choice is call for K9If only I had that option...

[Round Gun Shooter]

If only I had that option...

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e62/Round_Gun_Shooter/CORGI004.jpg

She works for food [smile]

[Jose]

I've heard that it's a bad idea. The light basically gives an intruder a good target to shoot at if you haven't aquired him in your light yet. Same with lasers. It's best to have a light in your offhand and hold it out and up police style, then if someone shoots at the light at worst you'll get an arm or hand injury, as opposed to a headshot on you because you were looking down a tac light.

That must be why weapon mounted lights are virtually universal on all police special teams, and more and more beat cops are equipping themselves thus. [thinking]

[NIGHT_OWL]

I think any advantage to target/threat ID is worth the $$. If I'm going for my SD weapon then I am thinking that something isn't "kosher" to start with! [thinking] I have a Surefire 6 volt fore end light on my 870 and a Gladius for use with my Sig 229. All I need is a conformation of who/what I'm shooting at. I also have Tritium sights on all my SD weapons.

[M1911]

She works for foodUnfortunately, our schedule (and my allergies) preclude a dog.

[TonyD]

I will put forth some input tomorrow. This is a good, and important discussion.

I am also moving this to the appropriate forum.

[pbsesq]

What if it's a drunk family member/loved one?
While I've got a couple of good lights and train with my Surefire regularly, I really don't need one at home. Anybody who comes through my locked bedroom door at night has already identified himself adequately to generate a lethal response.

Ken

[TonyD]

This is another reason why folks who are going to employ a firearm for personal protection really do need some type of formal training.


The problem with tac lights is that they generally require that you point a
loaded firearm around (and possibly at things which are non-targets) in order to be of any use. So, one must use them carefully. I don't think they're bad to have, but they're not really a good substitute for a separate
flashlight.

-Mike


I've heard that it's a bad idea. The light basically gives an intruder a good target to shoot at if you haven't aquired him in your light yet. Same with lasers. It's best to have a light in your offhand and hold it out and up police style, then if someone shoots at the light at worst you'll get an arm or hand injury, as opposed to a headshot on you because you were looking down a tac light.


I really do not like the idea of a light on a firearm in the case you describe. In order to light up friend or foe, you have to point a loaded firearm at them. Not a good thing in all situations.


A good, compact, bright, momentary-activated and reliable weapons mounted light system is probably the greatest innovation in home defense - in my opinion.

Folks who have only had a NRA basic course gets those 4 rules imbedded into their brain housing group as absolutely unbreakable. I am not putting the NRA course down but it is not the end-all of training. It is good knowledge for anyone who wants to store a firearm safely at home and go to the range to plink or just enjoy a day shooting.

When you use a firearm for vocation or defense there are different rules and techniques required to help maximize your survival and minimize colateral damage. And you may very well point a loaded weapon at a "friendly". That doesn't mean you have to shoot them.

The old FBI technique had its purpose years back when our only option for bright light was a heavy 3 - 5 cell Maglite and you were using it in constant on to search a room / building that you were not familiar with. The thought being the bad guy would shoot at the light and the light would be away from your head and body. The biggest problem comes when you have to try shooting one-handed in a shit-storm.

The context of this forum is personal defense, and this thread is home defense. You are familiar with the layout of your home. Your are familiar with the normal sounds within your home. You know who and where any family members are and what their normal routine is during the night. Most homes have enough ambient light from all the LED clocks on VCRs, street lights through windows, and such that coming out of a slumber you have very good night vision.

If you have been alerted to the point you truly believe you may need to use a weapon, that weapon had better be on target when you illuminate it. There is an old saying we used, "Your weapon does not follow your eyes, your eyes follow your weapon".

[N.E. CHARTERS]

I have to wonder why anyone would want to show there location with a light.

"MUZZLE FLASH SUPPRESSOR" and a little night light to show us the way???


If you need a light. MAG LIGHT makes a nifty little 5 D cell model that will work well to spotlight friendly people, ilumminate bad guys and doubles as a baseball bat in case you need to make a home run.

This picture sillistrates what not to do.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v629/gunnerclark/BubbasTacticalShotgun.jpg

[adweisbe]

The kel-tec on the stock is cute!

[TonyD]

I have to wonder why anyone would want to show there location with a light.



The simple answer is you can't hit what you can't see. The extended answer involves knowing how to use it correctly with proper techniques.

[M1911]

I have to wonder why anyone would want to show there location with a light.1) Would you rather shoot someone that you can't identify?

2) Go find someone who has a surefire light. Go into a dark room with him. Have him shine the light at your face for a moment, and then quietly move away. How long does it take you to find him again? Surefire (and other tactical lights) are blindingly bright.

[N.E. CHARTERS]

1) Would you rather shoot someone that you can't identify?

2) Go find someone who has a surefire light. Go into a dark room with him. Have him shine the light at your face for a moment, and then quietly move away. How long does it take you to find him again? Surefire (and other tactical lights) are blindingly bright.



1) I hopefully would not be able to identify the bad guy. Would not want it to be someone I know.


2) Blinding them is a good thing. If I blind them with both ends my Mag light its even better.

3) Back in Uncle Sams canoe club they taught us never to point a gun at anything unless you intend to shoot it. so. putting a flashlight on my gun would not make a lot of scense.

4) I would have to go with the hold the flashlight as high and far away from your body school of thought. That leaves you with a lot of flexability and options. I have used this technique and it works.


"Never said I dint know how to use it; Just said I never had much use for it"


http://romeocat.typepad.com/cathouse_chat/images/cutrun.jpg


And the NUMBER #1 Good reason not to have your light on a weapon. What if the person comming in the door is trained law inforcement and you .

a) shine a light at them or
b) shine a gun at them.

Leave the Lighted impliments in the Movies.

Hey I can see all the way thru!

http://www.medgear.org/images/ear_curette.jpg

[drgrant]

Folks who have only had a NRA basic course gets those 4 rules imbedded into their brain housing group as absolutely unbreakable. I am not putting the NRA course down but it is not the end-all of training. It is good knowledge for anyone who wants to store a firearm safely at home and go to the range to plink or just enjoy a day shooting.


I agree that often due to exigent circumstances often times those
rules will have to be violated, and sometimes in a specific mode of
carry often times things are unavoidable. (eg, if one is seated, have
fun trying to draw your gun without muzzle sweeping your leg, or if
you have an appedix holster, the muzzle is probably pointing on ones
leg or family jewels when it's in the holster. ) It's a matter of
risk management. (Don't anyone get the wrong picture... I'm not saying
muzzle sweeping someone is a good thing... but in some limited circumstances
it may be unavoidable. This is why the trigger finger mantra is probably
more important than all the other rules combined... with modern firearms the
gun will not fire unless one touches the trigger! )

FWIW, that isn't the mantra which I derived my statement from. Mine is
more of a legal than anything else. Yeah, if someone
has smashed your door down a tac light is probably fine, because at that
point they've already breached your house and pointing a loaded gun at
them isn't a huge issue. But for the standard "weird noise you heard" or
someone knocking at your door at 2 am, a tac light may be
inappropriate. I would be arrested (or at least deprived of a permit/guns)
by now if the neighbors saw me wandering around in the yard with a
pistol mounted tac light trying to figure out what "that noise" is.

I guess what I'm getting at is even if you do have a tac light, you should
have supplemental flashlight for times where bringing a muzzle to bear
on something may not be appropriate.


-Mike

[drgrant]

And the NUMBER #1 Good reason not to have your light on a weapon. What if the person comming in the door is trained law inforcement and you .

a) shine a light at them or
b) shine a gun at them.


Actually, they could SHOOT YOU either way if they see you
have something in your hand that you point at them. Cops have
shot people with soda cans in their hand. (One no-knock raid they
killed a guy in a bed with a soda can in his hand, the light shined off
it, they thought it was a gun and shot him. )

Of course this regurgitates the age old debate about no-knock
warrants..... Cops get the wrong house... it happens to be YOU...
what do you do? That's serious thread drift, though. IMO the
outcome -could- be bad there with or without a tac light due to
varying circumstances of the raid.

-Mike

[TonyD]

I agree that often due to exigent circumstances often times those
rules will have to be violated, and sometimes in a specific mode of
carry often times things are unavoidable. (eg, if one is seated, have
fun trying to draw your gun without muzzle sweeping your leg, or if
you have an appedix holster, the muzzle is probably pointing on ones
leg or family jewels when it's in the holster. ) It's a matter of
risk management. (Don't anyone get the wrong picture... I'm not saying
muzzle sweeping someone is a good thing... but in some limited circumstances
it may be unavoidable. This is why the trigger finger mantra is probably
more important than all the other rules combined... with modern firearms the
gun will not fire unless one touches the trigger! )

FWIW, that isn't the mantra which I derived my statement from. Mine is
more of a legal than anything else. Yeah, if someone
has smashed your door down a tac light is probably fine, because at that
point they've already breached your house and pointing a loaded gun at
them isn't a huge issue. But for the standard "weird noise you heard" or
someone knocking at your door at 2 am, a tac light may be
inappropriate. I would be arrested (or at least deprived of a permit/guns)
by now if the neighbors saw me wandering around in the yard with a
pistol mounted tac light trying to figure out what "that noise" is.

I guess what I'm getting at is even if you do have a tac light, you should
have supplemental flashlight for times where bringing a muzzle to bear
on something may not be appropriate.


-Mike

You make some very good points and I think if you go back and re-read my entire post you'll see that I limited my response to inside the house home defense scenario. I, too, am saying that muzzle sweep is not a good idea in general terms. I am saying that in the role of defensive combat you will sweep others while making the determination if they are a shoot or no-shoot. You also made a very good point that I should have elaborated on and that is the trigger finger.

A supplemental flashlight is ALWAYS a must but was not part of the scenario (and maybe should have been).

Some of the other comments made by some folks is very dangerous thinking and probably no amount of facts and discussion will change that.

[M1911]

2) Blinding them is a good thing. If I blind them with both ends my Mag light its even better.That requires you to get within grappling distance of them. Not a good idea for most of us.

3) Back in Uncle Sams canoe club they taught us never to point a gun at anything unless you intend to shoot it. so. putting a flashlight on my gun would not make a lot of scense.I'm an NRA certified firearms instructor. I know all about the safety rules, and if you reread the thread, you'll see that I never suggested violating them.

Surefire lights are bright enough that you can illuminate a room by bouncing the light off of the floor or wall. If your only experience is with a Maglight, then you might not realize this. You do not need to point the light (and thus the gun if you are using a weapon-mounted light) at a person to identify whether they are friend or foe.

I strongly suggest that you consider getting some lowlight training. Mine was at Sigarms Academy.

[LenS]

Harries Technique demonstrated by Gabe Suarez (1st two pics, not sure about the third):

http://www.hunt101.com/img/484070.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/484071.jpg

http://www.hunt101.com/img/484072.jpg

NOTE: When I took my police training, we were taught to hold the light out as far from our body as possible. Apparently they have changed tactics over the years and this is one of the more preferred methods.

[Round Gun Shooter]

A good, compact, bright, momentary-activated and reliable weapons mounted light system is probably the greatest innovation in home defense - in my opinion.

Folks who have only had a NRA basic course gets those 4 rules imbedded into their brain housing group as absolutely unbreakable. I am not putting the NRA course down but it is not the end-all of training. It is good knowledge for anyone who wants to store a firearm safely at home and go to the range to plink or just enjoy a day shooting.


Since you included a quote from my response, I will reply. I have attended training of various types and used the training since 1973. Little more than NRA basic.

(For the rest of this post I use the generic "you")

I would still suggest, there are much better methods than firearms mounted lights for home defense. First of all, anyone at home searching their own home for an intruder is a fool. Unless you are trying to round up family members, you are better off to stay in one spot and wait for the calvary or be prepared to defend against an intruder you are sure you can identify.

A hand held light is much easier to use in lighting areas and objects. If you are that concerned with shooting with one hand, I suggest you practice more. Shooting one hand whether it is with hand gun, rifle or shotgun is a necessary skill for you to master.

NRA aside as I do not agree with a lot of their training, I refer you to the 4 basic rules of gun safety:

The 1st Law of Gun Safety - The Gun Is Always Loaded!

The 2nd Law of Gun Safety - Never Point A Gun At Something You're Not Prepared To Destroy!

The 3rd Law of Gun Safety - Always Be Sure Of Your Target And What Is Behind It!
The 4th Law of Gun Safety - Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger Until Your Sights Are On The Target!

#2 and #3 are pertinent to this discussion. Using a light separate from the firearm allows proper target identification before covering with the muzzle. If you are LE or military going into a hot situation, you are planning on a hostile being present. The light works in that situation.

If you are Joe Homeowner with limited exposure to stressful situations and limited training your chances of shooting from a startle reflex is much greater. Using a light separate from the firearm will allow you the leeway you will need not to shoot the wrong person, or mirror [wink]

As for the techniques, the Harries and other cross hand techniques are very difficult to master. The Surefire technique makes a lot more sense. I will not be explaining it as I am not certified to teach it. Check out the Surefire web site. They used to have it there.

The other comment on giving up your position with a light is addressed this way. When the light goes on I am there. When the light goes out that is where I used to be.

PS: Len, the third is Ayoob (A long time ago)

[LenS]

Gary,

Thanks, I thought it was Mas, but wasn't 100% certain. The pics of Gabe must also be from a long time ago . . . he didn't look like that when I last saw him (2005).

I agree with your post . . . especially about MOVING! That was one of Gabe's comments and it makes perfect sense (but may not be too possible in many bedrooms due to logistics).

[USMA-82]

Just to throw a little wrench in the works - sometimes it doesn't matter what technique you use, or where you have the flashlight. You can still screw up.

At a Defensive Pistol match in Springfield a couple of years ago, competitors were shown an example of the type targets we would be using. The target used for the demonstration was a life-size, color picture of a young man with his back to you, looking over his left shoulder, and holding a gun just over the same shoulder.

After the briefing we went to the first stage and prepared for the match. At the start buzzer, all of the lights went out in the indoor range, turning it completely pitch black. I struggled to find my Surefire light and assume the Harries technique. When I found the first target, it was the same young man from the briefing - and I plugged him. But, as I found out later, the gun in his hand had been replaced with a cell phone. I had just "neutralized" a non-threat.

My point is that conditioned response can really do a number on you. If we train the way we fight (in low-light conditions), there needs to be a requirement to REALLY indentify the threat before shooting. This only comes from alot of practice, while operating under stress.

I'm not claiming my experience in training puts me at the same level as those of you who have done this "real life", but it scares me just enough to want to get more training, and hope I never have to use it.

[Round Gun Shooter]

At a Defensive Pistol match in Springfield a couple of years ago, competitors were shown an example of the type targets we would be using. The target used for the demonstration was a life-size, color picture of a young man with his back to you, looking over his left shoulder, and holding a gun just over the same shoulder.

After the briefing we went to the first stage and prepared for the match. At the start buzzer, all of the lights went out in the indoor range, turning it completely pitch black. I struggled to find my Surefire light and assume the Harries technique. When I found the first target, it was the same young man from the briefing - and I plugged him. But, as I found out later, the gun in his hand had been replaced with a cell phone. I had just "neutralized" a non-threat.


Last shooter on my squad in that match had a full duty rig on. Lights went out all you heard was "Oh Shit" . Took him a little while to find his light and get motoring.

That was a match where the only thing better than a light was 2 lights. It was a very good training exercise to say the least. Not real life but still good practice.

A friend from a major city PD shot the match with a Glock mounted light. He reverted back to hand held after one stage saying it was not a wide enough field of view.

[M1911]

As for the techniques, the Harries and other cross hand techniques are very difficult to master. The Surefire technique makes a lot more sense.Harries has a couple of issues. First, you can easily cross your support hand if you are not careful -- present the gun FIRST, then the support hand crosses under and comes behind. Second, it is tiring and not great at controlling recoil. Suarez suggests a modification of Harries. Instead of being in a sort of modified Chapman position (strong elbow locked), try putting your arms in more of an X, crossed at the wrists. That is, have both elbows bent and the gun canted inwards. I find that is easier to control recoil and easier to maintain for a longer period of time. YMMV.

There are lots of flashlight techniques. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. Try them and see what works for you, because it might not be the same as what works for me.

[Mattitude]

I'm starting to wonder if this is a home defense thread or not. Getting waken up suddenly at night and being awake for a good number of hours and using flashlight techinques are totally different animals. When something goes bump in the night enough to stir you from sleep, you are not "fully in the reality" (hard for me to put this in words...between dream land and full-on coffee fueled awake) of your surroundings. The adrealine starts pumping and then fumbling for a weapon AND a light. Did I mention that this is in almost complete darkness? The whole thing should be about simplicity and of course target recogintion. I have a Surefire forend on my shotgun, which is right next to the bed between the night stand. It's extremely easy to grab, and when the light is actuated it illuminates the whole room enough to see every corner clearly...even when pointed at the ceiling. Family members? I don't have kids and I would know if my wife is all of a sudden not sleeping next to me if I wake up. No notice warrants? When those are served, the officers are extremely LOUD and are shouting "police" and whatnot. They do that because a. element of surprise and show of force and b. so they don't get shot at by someone thinking they are someone that shouldn't be there...a personal safety thing. Now my shotgun/light perpslayer is only dangerous when I want it to be. I'm not going to hunt anyone down in my house, but if someone ignores my warning or the fecalating sound of a round of 00 buck being chambered and comes through the bedroom door unannounced, then it takes less than 1 second for me to go from a downward pointing shotty (w/light illuminated just by gripping the forend, target identified) to dangerous & deadly. If I do fire, I don't have to worry about over-penetration of the buckshot as opposed to a handgun or rifle/carbine round. It's simple, it's quick and easily doable when tired or wired.

[cdkayak]

Currently my setup is a handheld surefire and SA1911 (or my daily carry, both are available). I'm planning on picking up a rail mounted light for the 1911, it has a full length rail. My reasoning on that is while I have the surefire you are never sure what will happen in an emergency. Having the wepon mounted light is one more piece of insurance that I can ID a target if the surefire is dropped or fumbled.

Related to Mattitude's post above. I know everyone is different, but the few times I've been awakened in an emergency (luckily none involving our current subject) situation I've been alert and moving very quickly. I do realize that may not always be the case.

[Jose]

If I do fire, I don't have to worry about over-penetration of the buckshot as opposed to a handgun or rifle/carbine round.
You are operating under an incorrect assumption on this issue.

The box o' truth (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm)

[Mattitude]

You are operating under an incorrect assumption on this issue.

The box o' truth (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm)

No incorrect assumption. I've read the box of truth before and if you read the text, it states that the 00 buck load did NOT penetrate as much as the handgun and rifle rounds. The tests conducted are good, but not perfect and all inclusive. I live in a 2600 sq. ft. single story house w/a brick exterior. I am confident that any stray pellets shot from my bedroom will not make it through the brick exterior after going through a few walls, studs, fire place and traveling 60+ feet to the exterior wall. It is proven that buckshot has less over penetration than 9mm/45acp and rifle/carbine rounds.

[Jose]

No incorrect assumption. I've read the box of truth before and if you read the text, it states that the 00 buck load did NOT penetrate as much as the handgun and rifle rounds. The tests conducted are good, but not perfect and all inclusive. I live in a 2600 sq. ft. single story house w/a brick exterior. I am confident that any stray pellets shot from my bedroom will not make it through the brick exterior after going through a few walls, studs, fire place and traveling 60+ feet to the exterior wall. It is proven that buckshot has less over penetration than 9mm/45acp and rifle/carbine rounds.

So, 00 buck only goes through six sheets of drywall. Yep, pretty worry-free......[hmmm]

Brick is going to stop any handgun or small caliber rifle round (223) as well. In light of that, I much prefer an AR carbine.

[Mattitude]

So, 00 buck only goes through six sheets of drywall. Yep, pretty worry-free......[hmmm]

Brick is going to stop any handgun or small caliber rifle round (223) as well. In light of that, I much prefer an AR carbine.

You can't be seriously taking "the box of truth" as a be-all-end-all conversation stopper in regards to wall penetration. I didn't see any electrical conduits, studs, closet contents, etc. inside the "box of truth"...all of which is inside my house that could stop buckshot. Physics plays a big part in this. a 9mm, 115gr. projectile firing over 1200fps has much more mass and energy than a .32cal 30gr. (approx.) buckshot pellet. 6 sheets of drywall straight shot penetration, yes but in a real house it won't make it through 6 walls. 5.56mm 62gr. projectile @ 3200fps. will go through a brick wall. I am much more confident not only just in my house, but in the court room by choosing a plane Jane pump shotgun over an "assault" rifle/carbine. I know I can put a man down with 1 burst of buckshot than trying to get a good center mass shot placement with a carbine...and it might take a few shots. 1 in the arm, 2 in the lower abdomen, 2 in the chest before an intruder might be incapacited...meanwhile high velocity rifle rounds richochet off the floor, smash out a window and land who knows where. 2 problems here that might not be so obvious. It is entirely possible to fire off 5 rounds in a small caliber carbine to achive a vital hit or incapacation. The police, and worse yet, the court can rule this excessive force. I know of one case here in Fayetteville where it was ruled against a homeowner...and he is now a felon. That is problem 1. Problem 2 is the whole "assault" rifle/carbine thing in civil court. A person can be painted to be a "warrior" or "vigilante" with such "weaponry". Same can be said for highly customized or tuned pistols. They were "made" soley to kill...or so they will try to convince the jury. To keep a long story from getting longer (whew...), it is best to keep your choice for defense as simple as possible, w/high hit probability and lethality down to 1-2 shots to keep you "in the clear" as they say. I know my shotgun is extremely lethal. I know for a fact that any stray 00 buckshot rounds will NOT tear up my house and inconvience any neighbors. Politics up North are bad enough, but try defending yourself for a homicide you committed (defending your self & family no less...but some don't care you survived, only a life was lost) while using a weapon that is viewed as militaristic. Everyone here is an adult and can fully make your own choices, but be prepared to live with those choices.

[TonyD]

I'd like to see a link to the excessive force case.

[adweisbe]

I'd like to see a link to the excessive force case.
There was a guy in Arizona who was attacked by a man walking two dogs. I can't remember the details of the scenario but most think it was good shoot. After the guilty verdict one of the jurors mentioned the use of hollowpoint and a powerful caliber like 10MM as the reason for his giving the guilty verdict. He thought it showed intent to kill and not just to stop.

[Coyote33]

.

[Jose]

You can't be seriously taking "the box of truth" as a be-all-end-all conversation stopper in regards to wall penetration. I didn't see any electrical conduits, studs, closet contents, etc. inside the "box of truth"...all of which is inside my house that could stop buckshot. Physics plays a big part in this. a 9mm, 115gr. projectile firing over 1200fps has much more mass and energy than a .32cal 30gr. (approx.) buckshot pellet. 6 sheets of drywall straight shot penetration, yes but in a real house it won't make it through 6 walls. 5.56mm 62gr. projectile @ 3200fps. will go through a brick wall. I am much more confident not only just in my house, but in the court room by choosing a plane Jane pump shotgun over an "assault" rifle/carbine. I know I can put a man down with 1 burst of buckshot than trying to get a good center mass shot placement with a carbine...and it might take a few shots. 1 in the arm, 2 in the lower abdomen, 2 in the chest before an intruder might be incapacited...meanwhile high velocity rifle rounds richochet off the floor, smash out a window and land who knows where. 2 problems here that might not be so obvious. It is entirely possible to fire off 5 rounds in a small caliber carbine to achive a vital hit or incapacation. The police, and worse yet, the court can rule this excessive force. I know of one case here in Fayetteville where it was ruled against a homeowner...and he is now a felon. That is problem 1. Problem 2 is the whole "assault" rifle/carbine thing in civil court. A person can be painted to be a "warrior" or "vigilante" with such "weaponry". Same can be said for highly customized or tuned pistols. They were "made" soley to kill...or so they will try to convince the jury. To keep a long story from getting longer (whew...), it is best to keep your choice for defense as simple as possible, w/high hit probability and lethality down to 1-2 shots to keep you "in the clear" as they say. I know my shotgun is extremely lethal. I know for a fact that any stray 00 buckshot rounds will NOT tear up my house and inconvience any neighbors. Politics up North are bad enough, but try defending yourself for a homicide you committed (defending your self & family no less...but some don't care you survived, only a life was lost) while using a weapon that is viewed as militaristic. Everyone here is an adult and can fully make your own choices, but be prepared to live with those choices.

When you can show evidence of the things you claim as true (62 gr 5.56 going through brick walls, people being convicted by virtue of the firearm used, charges of excessive force due to multiple gunshot wounds in otherwise justfiable shootings, etc.), I will listen.

Maybe you are pretty good with a shotgun and suck with a carbine. Your words: "trying to get a good center mass shot placement with a carbine...and it might take a few shots. 1 in the arm, 2 in the lower abdomen, 2 in the chest before an intruder might be incapacited...meanwhile high velocity rifle rounds richochet off the floor, smash out a window and land who knows where". But if that's the case, don't project your lack of ability with certain weapons on others. At room distances, two to the chest and one to the head with a carbine happens lightning quick when the rifle in in my hands. YMMV.

I'm sure others would be interested in those factoids as well.

[LORD of WAR]

ok...here is my humble opinion on weapon lights

let me state for the record...i am not leo/active military

im a private citizen that trains as much and reads as much as i can about every discipline of gun handling/shooting etc

of all of my primary "go to" weapons...i have them outfitted with weaponslights

my primary AR has a surefire m96 fmounted on the fore end (a m900 is on order to outfit my other AR)
my pump shotgun has a surefire g35 mounted on the magazine tube
my glock 20 hasa streamlight m6x light/laser combo
and my kimber custom has a surefire x2000

when you have a weaponlight you have the advantage of being able to see what others cannot...that is why almost all of out military and leo are now issued lights

DARKNESS is an advantage of the criminal...they are able to conceal themselves easier and move with the shadows...think about when the last time was you saw a home invader dressed in reflective neon yellow clothing

a light takes the advantage of hiding under cover away from them and restores it in your hands

here is an example of why i keep my weapons with lights mounted on them

in a recent training course we were put into a scenario where terrorists had invaded the country and the movie theater we were in with out family was taken hostage...bad guys were taking pot shots at anything that moved and inside the theater was chaos...the objective was to use cover, move your wife and daughter to safety while eliminating any threats that stood in your way...now keep in mind...the setting was a movie theater...have you ever considered getting in a shootout in a movie theater where the only source of light is what is flickin on the screen...casting shadows over everything???

half of the guys in the training didnt come equipped with flashlights...the other half had hand held lights...i had both my small surefire E1L and my light mounted on my glock...i wasnt able to watch the guys go before me as it would have ruined the course for me but i was able to stay and watch the guys that went in after me

the guys without lights had a much lower hit % then those of us with lights
they were shooting what they could make out of the silhouettes that were popping up representing threats...keep in mind...as your moving, shooting, in the dark, trying to maintain cover, extract your family etc the trainers were yelling, firing blanks, and various other things to try and throw you off

the guys that i had watched after i went were fumbling with their lights, and many had either dropped them and left them or werent shooting as accurately as they could have trying to support both the light and their guns.

at the end of the drill we were told that amidst the fray there were 2 friendly targets...1 was a bystander...the other was police officer...in uniform...i had been the only member in the class who had not shot either of the two friendlys

i helped clean up the range once the practice was done and purposely went over to the target that was the "cop"...he was equipped with a badge, hat and night stick...the poor bastard never stood a chance...he was just as riddled with holes as the terrorist targets were


so there you have it...my experience and vote for why lights are neccessary...in my scenario they helped me identify my targets...distinguish shoot and no shoot targets...and survive the ordeal

[Mattitude]

I'd like to see a link to the excessive force case.

Tony, I talked to a customer (I work at a gun shop part-time) and he was looking at some black powder rifles to buy for his son. I asked him why not a rimfire and he told me that he was convicted of using excessive force in a home invasion and is now a convicted felon and forever ineligible to purchase/own/shoot a firearm. There was a pretty good story to go along with it but bottom line he was convicted of the charge.

[Mattitude]

When you can show evidence of the things you claim as true (62 gr 5.56 going through brick walls, people being convicted by virtue of the firearm used, charges of excessive force due to multiple gunshot wounds in otherwise justfiable shootings, etc.), I will listen.

Maybe you are pretty good with a shotgun and suck with a carbine. Your words: "trying to get a good center mass shot placement with a carbine...and it might take a few shots. 1 in the arm, 2 in the lower abdomen, 2 in the chest before an intruder might be incapacited...meanwhile high velocity rifle rounds richochet off the floor, smash out a window and land who knows where". But if that's the case, don't project your lack of ability with certain weapons on others. At room distances, two to the chest and one to the head with a carbine happens lightning quick when the rifle in in my hands. YMMV.

I'm sure others would be interested in those factoids as well.

Jose, I never said that I lacked training or skill with any weapon system and I don't know where you get that from. I never mentioned anything about handguns, so I must suck at them as well. I'm not here to brag about my abilities but I do know what works. I am a combat veteran, serving 16+ years and continuing. I know for a fact that 5.56 goes through brick and seen, and done it in Afghanistan. I know in a fire fight when getting shot at, precision shots are a bit difficult. Shooting at paper and at people who are shooting back, or have the ability to do so are totally different things. I have personally seen people shot with 5.56 multiple times before going down. I know that a shotgun is the quickest way to put a human down and in a home defense situation that is exactly what you want. Fancy shooting 2 to the chest and 1 to the head is best left to real world operators, but you sound highly skilled so I have no reason to doubt your technique. As to courtroom defense based on weapon type, I suggest you read some Massad Ayoob. He has a book on courtroom cases dealing with weapon type and ammunition. I have never been in a court case but he is more qualified than I, so I listen to what he has to say. Oh hell...what do I know anyway as appearantly I have no room to talk. I guess some real world experience doesn't mean nothing to the box 'o truth.

[drgrant]

Tony, I talked to a customer (I work at a gun shop part-time) and he was looking at some black powder rifles to buy for his son. I asked him why not a rimfire and he told me that he was convicted of using excessive force in a home invasion and is now a convicted felon and forever ineligible to purchase/own/shoot a firearm. There was a pretty good story to go along with it but bottom line he was convicted of the charge.


Yeah, but you didn't get the whole story. Often times people with poor
representation end up copping plea bargains for crimes they didn't commit
because the lawyer they had sucked and was trying to take the easy
way out. They also may not have told you that, well, maybe they
put a "quieting" shot into the guy after h e was already not a threat, or
some other behavior which was out of line with being consistent with
legal self defense.

I'm not disagreeing that a shoot can go bad... except I believe that
the reason some do go bad is because of something the person did or
did not do, not because of what kind of gun or ammunition they
used.


-Mike

[drgrant]

As to courtroom defense based on weapon type, I suggest you read some Massad Ayoob. He has a book on courtroom cases dealing with weapon type and ammunition. I have never been in a court case but he is more qualified than I, so I listen to what he has to say.


One thing to note about sniffing the "ayoob glue fumes" is that some of the
cases he brings up on those issues are not out and out self defense
cases. (eg, accidental shootings and other things which are NOT
self defense... )


-Mike

[Mattitude]

Yeah, but you didn't get the whole story. Often times people with poor
representation end up copping plea bargains for crimes they didn't commit
because the lawyer they had sucked and was trying to take the easy
way out. They also may not have told you that, well, maybe they
put a "quieting" shot into the guy after h e was already not a threat, or
some other behavior which was out of line with being consistent with
legal self defense.

I'm not disagreeing that a shoot can go bad... except I believe that
the reason some do go bad is because of something the person did or
did not do, not because of what kind of gun or ammunition they
used.


-Mike

Mike, yes I only got 1 side of the story. He did say that it was an extremely stressful event and he did open fire. I don't believe that there is anything such as a "good" shooting because there is a good chance of a life being lost and the live(s) of the survivor(s) being forever changed. Check out some Massad Ayoob. In the end everyone here can choose any type of weapon and ammo to defend your life with, I would just give some humble advice to do some research.

[Mattitude]

One thing to note about sniffing the "ayoob glue fumes" is that some of the
cases he brings up on those issues are not out and out self defense
cases. (eg, accidental shootings and other things which are NOT
self defense... )


-Mike

I would consider Ayoob more of an authority on civil matters than myself, but this is a self defense thread (and tac lights...I think [wink] ) and the goal is to stop a threat as quickly as possible. I choose a shotgun, others choose differently and there is nothing wrong with that.

[TonyD]

Tony, I talked to a customer (I work at a gun shop part-time) and he was looking at some black powder rifles to buy for his son. I asked him why not a rimfire and he told me that he was convicted of using excessive force in a home invasion and is now a convicted felon and forever ineligible to purchase/own/shoot a firearm. There was a pretty good story to go along with it but bottom line he was convicted of the charge.

I'd like to see first hand the circumstances but apparently that's not possible. I just don't take too many people at their word - I'm sure you understand.

[Mattitude]

I'd like to see first hand the circumstances but apparently that's not possible. I just don't take too many people at their word - I'm sure you understand.

Tony, I fully understand. The problem is that while the papers talk about shootings, they don't follow-up with the court cases and/or go in-depth with the story...unless it is a real high profile case. If the guy never told me, then I would've never heard of it. OT, are you in my neck of the woods?

[TonyD]

Tony, I fully understand. The problem is that while the papers talk about shootings, they don't follow-up with the court cases and/or go in-depth with the story...unless it is a real high profile case. If the guy never told me, then I would've never heard of it. OT, are you in my neck of the woods?

That is the problem and rarely do they give the true facts.

My location? See my avatar.[wink]

[N.E. CHARTERS]

Round Gun Shooter:


I like your Corgie:

I used two have two of thaem

Found that if I cross bread them whith a Pit Bull they were kinder & gentleter.

My Mutt now is a Labrrawidleder. Maybe a Cog Lab would be a good watch dog?
Of course we old not sell them unless we marketed them as CoLabrabors

[Round Gun Shooter]

Round Gun Shooter:


I like your Corgie:

I used two have two of thaem

Found that if I cross bread them whith a Pit Bull they were kinder & gentleter.

My Mutt now is a Labrrawidleder. Maybe a Cog Lab would be a good watch dog?
Of course we old not sell them unless we marketed them as CoLabrabors

Thanks, My Avatar has changed so you can see her on guard [wink]

[adweisbe]

Round Gun Shooter:


I like your Corgie:

I used two have two of thaem

Found that if I cross bread them whith a Pit Bull they were kinder & gentleter.

My Mutt now is a Labrrawidleder. Maybe a Cog Lab would be a good watch dog?
Of course we old not sell them unless we marketed them as CoLabrabors
We just finished house sitting a Corgie. It was horrible! She absolutely terrorized and ruined our Tervuren and we don't know if we will be able to train out the behaviors she learned. Our dog is depressed and too afraid to even play with us even though we are home and there are no corgies to harass her when she chases a toy. [angry]

/Complete and total thread jack