LTC/Class-A needed for out of state police who live in MA?

[glennv]

I have a buddy who is moving to MA but is a cop in RI. He is convinced that he doesn't need a LTC/class-A even though he owns several guns. (SKS, glocks, HKs). He is incorrect right? Does he need to take a safety course to get his permit?

[Scrivener]

I have a buddy who is moving to MA but is a cop in RI. He is convinced that he doesn't need a LTC/class-A even though he owns several guns. (SKS, glocks, HKs). He is incorrect right? Does he need to take a safety course to get his permit?

Convinced by WHAT? The mere fact he's a cop in ANOTHER state?[rolleyes]

His post-ban, "large capacity" mags are illegal, too.

[glennv]

Convinced by WHAT? The mere fact he's a cop in ANOTHER state?[rolleyes]

His post-ban, "large capacity" mags are illegal, too.

My exact thoughts. I knew this was the case but I needed to here it from someone else.

I don't think he has any post-ban hi-caps other than his department issued mags. Are these legal?

I told him I'd help pick out sheets for his jail cell.

[rscalzo]

He does NOT need a LTC as an out of state police officer. All current and retired police are covered under the Federal HR218 legislation. All he will require is his vaid ID and badge from his department. However, as an out of state police officer he is subject to certain restrictions such as the wishes of a private property owner not to have firearms on the property, etc.

[glennv]

He does NOT need a LTC as an out of state police officer. All current and retired police are covered under the Federal HR218 legislation. All he will require is his vaid ID and badge from his department. However, as an out of state police officer he is subject to certain restrictions such as the wishes of a private property owner not to have firearms on the property, etc.


What about his personal weapons? They are not covered by HR218 right? He'll need the class-A or B?

[Scrivener]

He does NOT need a LTC as an out of state police officer. All current and retired police are covered under the Federal HR218 legislation. All he will require is his vaid ID and badge from his department. However, as an out of state police officer he is subject to certain restrictions such as the wishes of a private property owner not to have firearms on the property, etc.

Let's check the actual text:


`Sec. 926B. Carrying of concealed firearms by qualified law enforcement officers

`(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of the law of any State or any political subdivision thereof, an individual who is a qualified law enforcement officer and who is carrying the identification required by subsection (d) may carry a concealed firearm that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, subject to subsection (b).

`(b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that--

`(1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or

`(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.

`(c) As used in this section, the term `qualified law enforcement officer' means an employee of a governmental agency who--

`(1) is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of, or the incarceration of any person for, any violation of law, and has statutory powers of arrest;

`(2) is authorized by the agency to carry a firearm;

`(3) is not the subject of any disciplinary action by the agency;

`(4) meets standards, if any, established by the agency which require the employee to regularly qualify in the use of a firearm;

`(5) is not under the influence of alcohol or another intoxicating or hallucinatory drug or substance; and

`(6) is not prohibited by Federal law from receiving a firearm.


Note the utter absence of any provision for OWNING firearms. Note also that it expressly refers to carrying concealed. This is clearly not an exemption for the Massachusetts "Assault Weapons Ban."

Can he carry in Mass. as a RI cop, active or retired? Yes.

Can he OWN guns as a Mass. resident, including non-duty guns and "assault weapons" merely because he is/was a cop? Show us the language in the Federal statute expressly trumping local law.....

[glennv]

Let's check the actual text:



Note the utter absence of any provision for OWNING firearms. Note also that it expressly refers to carrying concealed. This is clearly not an exemption for the Massachusetts "Assault Weapons Ban."

Can he carry in Mass. as a RI cop, active or retired? Yes.

Can he OWN guns as a Mass. resident, including non-duty guns and "assault weapons" merely because he is/was a cop? Show us the language in the Federal statute expressly trumping local law.....


I make sure I let him know. I knew he had his head in the wrong place.

thanks

[rscalzo]

HR218 does not allow the ownership of any firearms banned by the assault weapon legislation. On and off duty firearms are permitted under the federal legislation but anyone in the state on a non-offical capacity would not be exempted from any hi=cap or hp ammo regulations..

For anyone interested, here is the link to the Federal legislation...
http://www.leaa.org/218/218text.html

[Scrivener]

HR218 does not allow the ownership of any firearms banned by the assault weapon legislation. On and off duty firearms are permitted under the federal legislation but anyone in the state on a non-offical capacity would not be exempted from any hi=cap or hp ammo regulations..

Again, where does the Federal law authorize OWNERSHIP? The language clearly states the exemption is for concealed carry. It does not purport to be a wholesale substitution for/pre-emption of state licensing requirements.

[LenS]

There has also been a MGL on the books for >30 years that specifically exempts any visiting LEO from licensing requirements. This is long before HR218 was even dreamed of.

HOWEVER, <I hate to admit it but I think that [wink] > Scrivener is correct that "ownership IN MA" is NOT covered by MGL or HR218 and that he needs a LTC!

He should be smart and take the MA course (NO exemption for out of state LEOs), and get his MA LTC when he moves here.

[rscalzo]

You're losing me with the "ownership in MA." statement. As an out of state LE officer who has satisfied all the requirement of HR218, I'm not required to possess an MA LTC. What senario are you saying would require that licensing?

[Scrivener]

You're losing me with the "ownership in MA." statement. As an out of state LE officer who has satisfied all the requirement of HR218, I'm not required to possess an MA LTC. What senario are you saying would require that licensing?

The scenario expressly set forth in the original post:


I have a buddy who is moving to MA but is a cop in RI.

[rolleyes]

[rscalzo]

I'm not p on MA FA laws so this is a guess. In NJ, we were required to have a FID card but are exempt from the requirement of a carry permit. Anyone who works out of state and lives in the state need not have a carry permit if they are current or retired LE as per HR218 and satisfy all of the qualification requirements.

Where I see problems is with any firearms that are not duty related, such as post ban AW. But as I said, that is a opinion based only on my working with HR218.

[LenS]

Regardless of HR218 or the MGL LE exemption, NOBODY can purchase ammo or guns without a LTC!!

Ask Wal-Mart in N. Attleboro what happened when a uniformed female State Trooper was allowed to buy ammo just because she was in uniform (not asked for LTC). I suspect it was a "sting" but they lost their MA Dealers Licenses for 3 years and have raw knees from groveling to finally get it back!

[Scrivener]

I'm not p [?] on MA FA laws so this is a guess. In NJ, we were required to have a FID card but are exempt from the requirement of a carry permit.

Where I see problems is with any firearms that are not duty related, such as post ban AW. But as I said, that is a opinion based only on my working with HR218.

This isn't New Hampshire OR New Jersey and your unqualified guesses add nothing but confusion and misinformation.

Your claim of "working with HR218" is of dubious value, given that we have the actual text available.

[rscalzo]

Then I'll just stick with the information that my state LE agency has supplied me. HR218 covers me throughout the country. I have no need for Carry Permits in any state pending the completion of the requirements of the statute.

[LenS]

Carry permits for "visiting" are NOT the same as "possession and purchase permits" (like MA issues) for RESIDENTS. [In MA we don't call them that, but in essence that is what they are.]

[Scrivener]

Carry permits for "visiting" are NOT the same as "possession and purchase permits" (like MA issues) for RESIDENTS. [In MA we don't call them that, but in essence that is what they are.]

Don't try to confuse him with facts . - he's a LEO!

[rscalzo]

I understand that but the original question has gotten lost.


Don't try to confuse him with facts . - he's a LEO!

I get my information from the NJ State PBA Legal Division and NAPO. I think I'll trust their judgement to cover my butt.

[LenS]

I understand that but the original question has gotten lost.



I get my information from the NJ State PBA Legal Division and NAPO. I think I'll trust their judgment to cover my butt.

It covers your butt ONLY because you are NOT an inmate of PRM! Once you live here, you gotta play by MA rules.

That's the essential difference between YOU and the original question (FRIEND of glennv)! He plans on living here!

[Scrivener]

I understand that but the original question has gotten lost.

NO; the original question concerned someone MOVING to Massachusetts. YOU got lost and dragged this thread with you.


I get my information from the NJ State PBA Legal Division and NAPO. I think I'll trust their judgement [sic] to cover my butt.

Sources well known and respected for their extensive expertise in Massachusetts law.....[rolleyes]

[rscalzo]

I'm really not looking to get into a flame here but judging by the comment


Sources well known and respected for their extensive expertise in Massachusetts law.....

you don't have not idea what the organization represents. The president of NAPO which happens to be a country wide group has the as the president the head of the Boston PD union. Seems like they DO represent MA fairly well not to mention over 2000 police unions and over 238,000 LE officers throughout the country.

[Scrivener]

I'm really not looking to get into a flame here but judging by the comment you don't have not [sic] idea what the organization represents. The president of NAPO which happens to be a country wide group has the [sic] as the president the head [sic - which is it?] of the Boston PD union.

Res ipsa loquitur [rolleyes]

[Kurtz]

Any LEO can carry concealed in MA, but once you move here you have to abide by the regulations. Which means he'll need to get a Class A to legally own them.

A question I have is if his magazines are duty related would they still be illegal to possess?

[Scrivener]

Any LEO can carry concealed in MA, but once you move here you have to abide by the regulations. Which means he'll need to get a Class A to legally own them.

A question I have is if his magazines are duty related would they still be illegal to possess?

As a DUTY gun is exempt, its mags would be also.

"Duty" being the operative term. [wink]

[greycar]

The MCOPA Counsel [ Atty. Collins] on LEOSA :

Federal Concealed Carry Law
A new Federal law authorizes active and retired
police officers to carry concealed firearms, regardless of state
laws to the contrary, with certain exceptions. Entitled, “The
Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004”, the law attempts
to use the “interstate commerce” provision of the
Constitution to justify the overriding of state laws. (A challenge
might be made that this is not a valid exercise of federal
power.)
Active “qualified law enforcement officers” who are
carrying required identification, may carry a concealed firearm
anywhere in the US, except where a state law allows
private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict such possession
on their property, or where a state law similarly restricts
or prohibits concealed carrying on a state or local
government property, installation, building, base or park.
The officer must have arrest powers, be authorized
by his/her agency to carry firearms, not be the subject of any
disciplinary action, meet current firearms qualifications, not
be under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and not be prohibited
by Federal law from receiving a firearm.
The photo ID issued by their governmental agency
is what is required under the new law. Not included are
machine guns, firearms silencers, or destructive devices.
Similar rules allow retired officers to carry concealed
weapons. They must have retired in good standing, not for
mental instability, have been regularly employed with arrest
powers for 15 years (unless a service-connected disability
cut their career short) and met their agency’s firearms test in
the past 12 months (or the state’s if none locally).
The law does not require local police departments
to issue photo ID’s, nor take any action to provide officers
traveling out of state with documentation of qualifications to
carry a concealed weapon. The department need not test
or be involved in testing of retired officers.
If officers come across an individual claiming to be
able to carry a concealed weapon under the Federal law,
the burden should be on the person to prove he or she is
exempt from a Massachusetts statute. If the officer has probable
cause to believe an offense has been committed, an
arrest or complaint is appreciated.
Courts and lawyers will be busy for years!

from mcopa news sep 2004.pdf

[Scrivener]

...may carry a concealed firearm anywhere in the US, except where a state law allows private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict such possession on their property, or where a state law similarly restricts or prohibits concealed carrying on a state or localgovernment property, installation, building, base or park.

Once again, for those who (choose to) miss it, the law only permits carrying a concealed firearm "on the badge." It in no way permits the purchase or possession of non-duty guns or ammo.

Its intended purpose is to allow cops to carry concealed while traveling. It does not supercede state licensing laws - to the extent it is even legal, as opposed to yet another abuse of the Commerce Clause. [puke]

[LenS]

Thanks Greycar!

As one can see . . . MA is a "gun friendly state" where they will do whatever they can to even keep fellow LEOs from carrying firearms anywhere! [rolleyes]

Sorry, I wouldn't believe any PBA anywhere over the info that I'm aware of (from inside circles in MA, MCOPA).

[rscalzo]

From what I can see, the MCOPA hasn't taken a stand on it. In my experience with the MA LE circles, they have no problem with the legislation. Nor does NJ, NY, NH or PA in my experience.

The wonderful politicians of MA (read the great Kennedy klan) tried their best to block the legislation but failed on every attempt. Many states have taken steps to provide the qualification process, even NJ got a program in place. As for the last line (an arrest is appreciated, that has been avoided, even in gun unfriendly NYC due to the potention for a civil suit.To date, I haven't heard of one case involving a HR218 case when the holder was carrying in line with the regulations.

As an aside, the fifteen year rule is pending down to ten years.

[Scrivener]

From what I can see, the MCOPA hasn't taken a stand on it. In my experience with the MA LE circles, they have no problem with the legislation. Nor does NJ, NY, NH or PA in my experience.

If it's enacted, it is not "legislation;" if it's still pending legislation, it's not a law. [rolleyes]

Not that it matters one whit whether MCOPA or any other group has "taken a stand on it" for the purpose of answering the OP's question. The bottom line is that a law permitting out-of-state LEOs to carry concealed has NO effect on state laws requiring residents to have licenses to own guns.

Grasp the concept.

[LenS]

rscalzo, with due respect my sources are deep (and deeply involved) in MCOPA. They did vote to NOT support HR218. Their attorney parrots their positions well. NOTE well the implied "out" whereby MCOPA Counsel alludes to the fact that nothing requires a chief to issue a "retired ID" (or any ID to active LEOs either for that matter).

But all that said, the officer in the street is unlikely to jam up a Brother/Sister just because his/her chief has a hard-on for anyone carrying a gun on the chief's turf!

But as Scriv and myself has stated, "visitations" (HR218) and living here are two distinctly different animals.

Lots of changes need to be made to HR218's current law (sorry, I never memorized the PL number), but HR218 itself took ~15 years to pass. Any changes are likely to take another 10-15 years . . . and the end result may or may not improve the situation.

[Mach]

Regardless of HR218 or the MGL LE exemption, NOBODY can purchase ammo or guns without a LTC!!

Ask Wal-Mart in N. Attleboro what happened when a uniformed female State Trooper was allowed to buy ammo just because she was in uniform (not asked for LTC). I suspect it was a "sting" but they lost their MA Dealers Licenses for 3 years and have raw knees from groveling to finally get it back!

LenS,

Are you saying a Fed LEO can't buy ammo in MA on his creds? He needs a LTC to purchase ammo?

[LenS]

Mach, YES that is true. NOBODY can buy legally w/o LTC. Your AGENCY can purchase from anywhere and have it shipped to their office, but no private purchases without MA LTC.

Them's the laws in MA.

Some places may sell to you on creds, but if they do they are violating state law and can be prosecuted and persecuted (MA licenses pulled for however long the chief wants to punish them).

[Mach]

LenS,

Thanks.

[Jaxon]

Hi,
As a retired LEO from Ohio, I possess the certifications/qualifications for the LEOSA04, HR218.

As a resident of MA, I am required to have an LTC to purchase ammo/firearms, which I have.

Its pretty simple. Get a LTC if you're going to live in MA. [thinking]

[rscalzo]

Does the state have a simple Firearm's ID card? What would one do if they didn't have any desire to carry a firearm? Are they required to still go through the process. Sounds really screwed up.

I never doubted the need for some sort of documents from MA. I just don't see the need for a carry permit simply to buy ammo/firearms but maybe the state really is that screwed up...

And you are right Len. No one is going to make an issue between departments. For years prior to HR218, we carried freely between New York City and New Jersey as did NYPD. No one cared in the least.

[dwarven1]

Does the state have a simple Firearm's ID card? What would one do if they didn't have any desire to carry a firearm? Are they required to still go through the process. Sounds really screwed up.
Yes. Get an FID for non-large capacity rifles & shotguns or a Class B LTC for large cap rifles/shotguns. Yes. It is.


I just don't see the need for a carry permit simply to buy ammo/firearms but maybe the state really is that screwed up...
It is. Honestly.

[LenS]

Essentially the requirements are almost identical to get a LTC-A as an FID (some will nitpick of course, but cost is same $100/6 years, both require a course of some sort, answers to almost identical questions, etc.).

Why get a crippled permit that won't allow legal possession (or buying ammo) for a handgun at the same cost/aggravation factor.

Kinda like being offered a hot dog or fillet minion and both cost the same amount of money! Which do you pick?

Most MA LTC holders do not ever "carry". They should call it a "Mother May I Permission Slip to Possess" instead of LTC!

[glennv]

Essentially the requirements are almost identical to get a LTC-A as an FID (some will nitpick of course, but cost is same $100/6 years, both require a course of some sort, answers to almost identical questions, etc.).

Why get a crippled permit that won't allow legal possession (or buying ammo) for a handgun at the same cost/aggravation factor.

Kinda like being offered a hot dog or fillet minion and both cost the same amount of money! Which do you pick?

Most MA LTC holders do not ever "carry". They should call it a "Mother May I Permission Slip to Possess" instead of LTC!

It's better than paying $100 for a non res permit that's only good for a year. (I 'll have to dig but there is case law that deemed this unconstitutional.) Someone will eventually fight this.

[Hawgleg44]

rscalzo, with due respect my sources are deep (and deeply involved) in MCOPA. They did vote to NOT support HR218. Their attorney parrots their positions well. NOTE well the implied "out" whereby MCOPA Counsel alludes to the fact that nothing requires a chief to issue a "retired ID" (or any ID to active LEOs either for that matter).


With the rules that went into effect about four years ago, how is an officer in MA supposed to enter a courthouse on duty, carrying his sidearm, without a valid police ID? We got a notice from the courts saying that any LEO entering the courthouse on official busines while carrying his sidearm must produce two forms of ID, a badge and a valid police ID.

I've never heard of a police chief who didn't issue ID's to their officers.

[LenS]

Hawg, I don't want to go there!! [rolleyes]

Many courts around my area disarm all who enter. LEOs are allowed to lock them up, others are turned away.

I've yet to be asked for ID, other than my badge but I have an ID in the case as well. In some courts I've then just walked thru, in others I've had to disarm and leave the gun and knife in a gun locker at the security checkpoint.

Those rules are made by the chief justice of each and every courthouse, so we have "hundreds of rules" in MA! Sounds just like the LTC issuance doesn't it? [rolleyes]

[rscalzo]

The refusal to issue ID cards was geared more towards the retired guys. Current LE officers all have them, at least as far as I've heard. I never had a problem getting an ID card from my department. With my ID is a copy of my latest qualification from both NJ and NH.

[LenS]

Some of our active guys have had troubles with IDs, since the PD doesn't own any ID equipment and the town has been too cheap to buy it. I hope to have a resolution to this shortly, by donation (I'm hoping).

Retirees have been spotty, I know some who got NOTHING from our chief.

[rscalzo]

All we used was our polaroid ID camera. The id cards were made up in bulk by our printer. We looked into the high tech digital id card equipment but the town didn't want to go for the money. As the town has over 500 employees, it would have been worth it instead of having several different types of cards for each department.

The only up side was that I was able to get my passport photos done using their equipment.

[JonJ]

MGL Chp 41:

§ 98D. Identification Card to Be Carried on Police Officer's Person and Exhibited on Request.
Text
Each city or town shall issue to every full time police officer employed by it an identification card bearing his photograph and the municipal seal. Such card shall be carried on the officer's person, and shall be exhibited upon lawful request for purposes of identification.

[Hawgleg44]

MGL Chp 41:
Each city or town shall issue to every full time police officer employed by it an identification card bearing his photograph and the municipal seal. Such card shall be carried on the officer's person, and shall be exhibited upon lawful request for purposes of identification.

That law takes care of larger departments, but not out here in the sticks. Over 90% of the LEO's on smaller departments are part time officers. But, even though this law doesn't effect them, I still have never heard of one without an ID.

Here in Franklin County, the Sheriff's Office (Franklin County HOC) does the ID's for all of the smaller departments who don't have their own ID equipment. We used to have this generic looking photocopy/polaroid card, but not anymore.

[LenS]

We had a typed up card with a stick on picture and thumbprint IIRC.

On a one-shot basis, they had a bunch of officers go to a neighboring PD to get "real IDs" using a digital ID system. Anyone who didn't make it or wasn't around was out of luck.

Since our chief puts expiration dates on the IDs, when it came time to "renew" them, officers were out of luck or if they bitched mightily, they got the old typed up style.

My source of info was a Selectman I'm friendly with (and have been discussing my lack of current ID with for 3 years) and a very well respected (at least by me) Sgt. who's been on the department for probably 20 years . . . he was on active duty in the sandbox when they got the digital IDs (one-shot deal), so he was SOL upon his return and his ID was expiring. He forced the issue and got an old typed up one.

Shortly I'll be paying a visit to that neighboring department to get a better understanding of what works and what doesn't wrt the digital ID system and merge that info with what I picked up at the IACP Expo before I go "begging for bucks" to get the equipment donated.

[Jaxon]

Hell's bells... I knew the state was fracked up over alot of stuff.. but Police IDs? Geez, no wonder retired cops will have a cold day in hell getting an ID for the LEOSA04. [frown]

[LenS]

I spent an hour+ with an old friend who has been running the FT PO academy program at one site for >20 years. She had never heard of HR218 at all! And they run the in-service firearms qualification for 30+ towns! She confirmed that MCOPA's Training and Education Committee write all the training curriculum . . . hence no efforts to do HR218 training for retirees or anyone who doesn't do the In-Service Academy.

One good piece of news that I'll pass on to another old friend (retired LEO/firearms instructor) is that officers do NOT automatically lose their firearms instructor credentials upon retirement . . . as long as their former department will sponsor them as an instructor to MPTC! The retired officer I refer to had told me that all officers automatically lose their instructor creds immediately upon retirement, and he wanted to continue training and certifying officers . . . so now I get to tell him some good news.

[rscalzo]

Ask a lot of LE out there and they never heard of it.

NJ had a program in place years prior to the bill. Our state PBA worked out a deal with a former gov. for a Retired Officer Carry bill. Not going into details, we have to maintain the same qualifications as current officers using a state manidated course of fire twice a year. The permits are renewed every years.

Now with HR218 in place, we have a program in place to satisfy the requirements. I don't lose my PTC certification as a FI instructor and I'm certified to qualify under the NJ law. I'm back in NJ enough that I can get in the two quals easily.

As far as ID's, I've never seen a department that didn't issue them. I would be VERY suspect of someone displaying a badge with my ID included. I just wish my department didn't put expiration dates on my retired ID. Kind on makes me think the grim reaper is just around the corner..Or maybe they think I'm coming back to work...

By the way, NH does have a procedure in place for HR218.

[Captain Crunch]

MGL Chapter 140: Section 129C. Application of Sec. 129B; ownership or possession of firearms or ammunition; transfers; report to executive director; exemptions; exhibiting license to carry, etc. on demand



Section 129C. No person, other than a licensed dealer or one who has been issued a license to carry a pistol or revolver or an exempt person as hereinafter described, shall own or possess any firearm, rifle, shotgun or ammunition unless he has been issued a firearm identification card by the licensing authority pursuant to the provisions of section one hundred and twenty-nine B.



The provisions of this section shall not apply to the following exempted persons and uses:



(o) Persons in the military or other service of any state or of the United States, and police officers and other peace officers of any jurisdiction, in the performance of their official duty or when duly authorized to possess them;



Any person, exempted by clauses (o), (p) and (q), purchasing a rifle or shotgun or ammunition therefor shall submit to the seller such full and clear proof of identification, including shield number, serial number, military or governmental order or authorization, military or other official identification, other state firearms license, or proof of nonresidence, as may be applicable.

Chapter 140: Section 131G. Carrying of firearms by non-residents; conditions



Section 131G. Any person who is not a resident of the commonwealth may carry a pistol or revolver in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of taking part in a pistol or revolver competition or attending any meeting or exhibition of any organized group of firearm collectors or for the purpose of hunting; provided, that such person is a resident of the United States and has a permit or license to carry firearms issued under the laws of any state, district or territory thereof which has licensing requirements which prohibit the issuance of permits or licenses to persons who have been convicted of a felony or who have been convicted of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs; provided, further, that in the case of a person traveling in or through the commonwealth for the purpose of hunting, he has on his person a hunting or sporting license issued by the commonwealth or by the state of his destination. Police officers and other peace officers of any state, territory or jurisdiction within the United States duly authorized to possess firearms by the laws thereof shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed to have a permit or license to carry firearms as described in this section.