Riverside IDPA competitors -- Hints for Sept. IDPA Match

[Cross-X]

As many of you know, I am the Match Director for the September IDPA match at Riversideon Saturday, September 24th.

I thought I might give you some idea of the kinds of things I am considering for some of the stages:

First, there will definitely be one or two low light stages.

Second, there will likely be a rifle stage, probably with iron sights.

There may be a backup gun stage.

Finally, I am considering adding a pistol stage that will require some long distance shots.


(UPDATE -- Due to Riverside range policy, I will be unable to offer the dueling post side match that I was hoping to have.)

C-X

[DR]

Second, there will likely be a rifle stage, probably with iron sights.

Does this mean we should bring a rifle or will one be provided (a la Ken's escaping hostage stage)?

[Cross-X]

Second, there will likely be a rifle stage, probably with iron sights.

Does this mean we should bring a rifle or will one be provided (a la Ken's escaping hostage stage)?


I will provide the rifle and you can provide the marksmanship!

By the way, David, great job at the match!

[Cross-X]

UPDATE -- Due to Riverside range policy, I will be unable to offer the dueling post side match.

I am sure I can come up with something equally challenging -- stay tuned!

[Chris]

hehehe Dah we're workin wid da cwazy wabbit now.

We hav a good swooting chawenge for ya.

Elmer

[Cross-X]

Hey, even tho dueling posts are out, I understand that bowling pins may be in season....hint, hint!

[dwarven1]

UPDATE -- Due to Riverside range policy, I will be unable to offer the dueling post side match!
Huh? When did dueling trees get outlawed at Riverside? and why, for Ghu's sake?

Ross

[Cross-X]

There was a recent complaint from shooters on another range, the five stand range, I think, that they had been struck by shrapnel coming from steel targets on the pistol range.

As a result, the e-board has decided to, temporarily, at least, ban steel targets at Riverside.

[dwarven1]

It really traveled that far? Well, I suppose that they had the shrapnel to back their claim. Darned if I can figure out how it went that far, though... This was during the last shoot?

Ross

[Cross-X]

Check with Chris or Ken Kennedy for the particulars as to when it happened.

I share your doubts that it could travel several hundred yards.

[Lynne]

There may be a backup gun stage.


Are we able to pick our own pieces to perform and costumes? Or will you provide them as well?

<snort, slap knee> [lol] [lol] [wink]

[Chris]

Without getting into the politics and the who said what, here are the "facts" in question:

1) IDPA was shooting steel on a Thursday night.

2) A person standing by the shotgun shack was struck in the shoulder by something hard enough to have him call out "ouch".. (projectile was not recovered, and not positivly identified)

3) An object of unknown source or compsition was heard traveling through the trees over the heads of those by the Shotgun shack.

4) Only shooting at that time was on the IDPA line roughly centered at the berm of the 25 yard range.

5) No mention of this was brought to the attention of the shooters the night of the incident.

Until the issue can be worked out and dealt with, all steel has been mothballed.

The suspected round in question would have come from the lower part of the berm on the 25 yd range, (not higher than 3.5') ricochet to the left at an angle less than 90 degrees so that it headed back toward the firing line. Richochet would also need to deflect a slightly downward path, to one that is high enough to clear the 8' wall (roughly a 25 degree minimum trajectory). Once out of the range, the round would then have to maintain enough energy to travel the width of the 50 yard range, 100 yard range,and the length of the driveway to the shotgun fields (roughly 150 yards total)

Calibers in question would be 9x19, .38 Special, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.

The matter is still under study.

[dwarven1]

Uh-huh. Right.

[Cross-X]

Engineers, break out your slide rules!



Sounds like ca ca del toro to me!

[M1911]

The suspected round in question would have come from the lower part of the berm on the 25 yd range, (not higher than 3.5') ricochet to the left at an angle less than 90 degrees so that it headed back toward the firing line. Richochet would also need to deflect a slightly downward path, to one that is high enough to clear the 8' wall (roughly a 25 degree minimum trajectory). Once out of the range, the round would then have to maintain enough energy to travel the width of the 50 yard range, 100 yard range,and the length of the driveway to the shotgun fields (roughly 150 yards total) Sure.

For all you reloaders, I've got some steelish lead to sell you. You'll have to tear it down, transport, and melt it yourself, since it is currently in the form of a bridge. But I'll sell it to you cheap...

[derek]

Without getting into the politics and the who said what, here are the "facts" in question:

1) IDPA was shooting steel on a Thursday night.

2) A person standing by the shotgun shack was struck in the shoulder by something hard enough to have him call out "ouch".. (projectile was not recovered, and not positivly identified)

3) An object of unknown source or compsition was heard traveling through the trees over the heads of those by the Shotgun shack.

4) Only shooting at that time was on the IDPA line roughly centered at the berm of the 25 yard range.

5) No mention of this was brought to the attention of the shooters the night of the incident.

Until the issue can be worked out and dealt with, all steel has been mothballed.

The suspected round in question would have come from the lower part of the berm on the 25 yd range, (not higher than 3.5') ricochet to the left at an angle less than 90 degrees so that it headed back toward the firing line. Richochet would also need to deflect a slightly downward path, to one that is high enough to clear the 8' wall (roughly a 25 degree minimum trajectory). Once out of the range, the round would then have to maintain enough energy to travel the width of the 50 yard range, 100 yard range,and the length of the driveway to the shotgun fields (roughly 150 yards total)

Calibers in question would be 9x19, .38 Special, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP.

The matter is still under study.

I'm not an expert in ballistics, but I've spent way more than enough time on the range to call BS. I know that you guys are only following what the club says, but come on. Christ the Marine Corps was more than careful, what I saw at riverside was way more controlled than any Marine Corps range.... [evil]

[Lynne]

I'm no ballistics expert either, and I haven't been to Riverside, however, reading your description, I'm having a hard time visualizing how that could ricochet to get to the shotgun range....

[Chris]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/canthsrider/IMG_0115.jpg

Thanks Ross for the photo...

This is someone shooting at the line of the 25 yd range. We were actually shooting about 2/3 down the range, but the steel targets were at the backstop.

If you look behind the shooter, the roof you see at the third blue barrel down is the cover for the 100 yd range. The width of the 100 yard range is roughly the same distance as to that roof from the shooter. As you can see, there is a high line of trees beyond the 100 yd range. A 200 or so foot driveway goes through those trees to the shotgun field parking area. The shack is probably another 75-100 feet. If you drew a line along the rear of the concrete of the rifle pistol ranges out into the shotgun fields, you would pretty much bisect the main parking area. The shotgun shack where the 'hit' occured is roughly 40 feet to the left of that line as seen in this photo. Hope that helps visualize the type of richochet we are talking about.

[dwarven1]

Chris, the phrase you're looking for to describe a riccochet hitting someone on the shotgun range is "freakin' impossible". (I acutally started to type something else, but it's a family forum...)

It's not a very charitable thought, but I have to wonder if the person or persons who reported it have some reason for disliking the IDPA shoots.

[Nickle]

I've seen stranger things happen than what was described, but, they're rare and unlikely. Ask anyone that was at Eden for the Memorial Day Machine Gun shoot what happened. A piece of car got blown from the 100 yard target area, back to the shooting line. No one was hurt, nothing damaged (except a couple of people's drawers). Tannerite has some power, I'll tell you.

[Chris]

I agree, oddball things CAN happen which is why I am still taking this incident very seriously. My report next month to the board will include every possible 'magic bullet' theory I can come up with. However, conclusions will be based solely on facts.

To be honest, right now, the most plausable theory I can coe up with is that he was struck by a falling acorn, which can be seen in significant numbers around the shotgun shack.

I have searched on two occations for any bullet fragments (lead core or copper jacket) around the shotgun shack, and have found NOTHING. Doesn't mean anything as who knows which way it might have bounced, but evidence is not present.

It's just annoying to be spending time on this when I have so many other things I need to get done.

[derek]

Chris,

With the barriers between ranges, the angle that the bullet would have had to be at to clear the wall would have been pretty big. There wouldn't be enough energy to make it travel all the way down to the other end of the range, unless the bullet ceiling was about 400+ feet high. Making the total distance traveled quite far.

Just my 2 cents.

Derek

[Cross-X]

I guess the biggest question we face is, how can we prove to the satisfaction of "them" that this incident was not caused by a steel target ricochet?

[Cross-X]

Maybe the shotgunners should be told to obey the rule that says eye and ear protection is required at all times.

(Pardon me if I sound a little testy!)

[derek]

Don't they have to prove it first? You can allege anything. I would imagine the board would want some sort of proof. And without a jacket or lead, that’s a tough one to prove.

[derek]

Maybe the shotgunners should be told to obey the rule that says eye and ear protection is required at all times.

(Pardon me if I sound a little testy!)

You have every reason to be testy...

[Nickle]

Maybe the shotgunners should be told to obey the rule that says eye and ear protection is required at all times.

(Pardon me if I sound a little testy!)

Up here, the shotgunners are more strict about protection than the rest. I can't remember the last time I saw a Skeet shooter without muffs or plugs, and almost all of them wore eye protection. A lot of the rifle folks didn't use glasses, and some shooting 22's didn't use hearing protection.

[Cross-X]

What I'd like to know is how can you get hit by a ricochet, have it apparently leave no mark, and still not recover it?


By the way, when those shotgunners use their range, their shots routinely send dozens of sprays of shot over our heads and into the trees to the side of our range.

Shouldn't this also be a safety issue causing an immediate moratorium on the use of _their_ range?

[derek]

What I'd like to know is how can you get hit by a ricochet, have it apparently leave no mark, and still not recover it?


That's the most important issue here. It looks like a witch hunt to me.

[Cross-X]

Also, why not go over to the pistol range and say something right then and there so that those of us who were on that range could do our own little investigation?

Geez, in Massachusetts, leaving the scene of a motor vehicle accident is a crime, so, by analogy...

[Nickle]

Now, what I mentioned happening in Eden was a fluke, and yes, Tannerite is pretty powerful stuff.

The reason I'm saying this is because like the two of you, I'm skeptical, based on what I've seen here.

[Lynne]

I'm wondering why they didn't come right over and say something myself. Cripes, *I* would have iffn' I had been the one hit. And yes, C-X, if their shot is going over your heads, then something should be said about that. Sounds to me like someone's got a hair across their rumproast as far as you guys go, but that's me.

[crazyneddie]

wow that's rediculous. I have been there and no way is handgun ammo going to ricochet that far. I shoot steels alot, and yes you get hit by fragments bouncing back often. BUt they don't even leave a mark when from only 20-30 feet away. Like you said, eye & ear. If you can't take a shot from an acorn, maybe body armor too! Ha HA.